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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

peterturchin.com

21–30 of 189 posts

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#21
post #6
post #3

While I found this quite interesting, and I'm as concerned about some of these trends as the next person, I was eerily reminded of some of John Robbins's stuff graphing meat consumption against incidence of diseases and his kind of casual thinking about causation. We have so many datasets available now that it's so easy to graph things against each other and notice things that may be coincidentally related, or even c…

We have so many datasets available now that it's so easy to graph things against each other and notice things that may be coincidentally related, or even causally related, and then tell some kind of story about where the relationship came from. Yeah, it's a fun website -- but you could say that about just about any claimed correlation. Meanwhile, for those who have been around long enough to have a sense for the 'bar…

> the shift in the basic, underlying "we're-all-in-this-together" ethos has been not just noticeable, but profound

Depends on your value of "we."

There is certainly lower solidarity/interest in public life among the straight white landowning Christian men from good families who used to participate in things like freemasonry and Rotary.

On the other hand, both the left and right have been adding previously marginalized demographics to their constituencies and platforms.

I don't think there's any less solidarity going around. My intuition is that more people than ever have their voices heard and interests represented in public life. But rather than one line of solidarity across the center of the political spectrum, we now have two disjoint lines reaching from each party's center to what used to be its marginalized fringes. (Not just in ideology, but in identity).

We also just aren't in this together so much anymore. The rise of coastal cities means the country is increasingly split between (at least) two totally distinct patterns of geography, economics, culture, built environment, and lifestyle. The correlation between population density and vote share on the latest electoral map is staggering.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#23
post #5

Nothing 'strange' about this at all; to a first-order approximation, it's the inevitable byproduct of the transformative shift in the society's governing ideology over the same timespan: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/18/neoliberalism-t... That said, the various participation rates he's siting may presumed to be somewhat skewed by immigration.

Thanks for that link. Interesting rundown of the topic.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#24

The dating market for men has become extremely difficult over the last few years (lots of factors for that), more and more men are unable to find a mate. Men are less inviting of other men from my observation as they are in deep competition with each other -- why risk having another man around when he might take your girl or reduce your chances? Apps, dating sites, clubs, and events are filled with men looking for wo…

There's a lot to unpack in that comment, and I'm not going to take a swing at much of it, except to say that you should be careful of confusing visibility with reality. Both the haves and the have nots are equipped with increasingly large megaphones (instagram, et al). Most people are regular, and guys have been "taking" other guy's girls since we were beating each other with sticks. The idea that this phenomenon is new or unnatural aims to make it easier to paint as unfair, and for the plaintiff to claim victimhood. Watch out for that. Lots of lonely guys trying to deflect blame away from their own shortcomings. It's not intellectually honest.

Anyway, I think the issue is one level up from that: Economic uncertainty in general, rather than strictly social/reproductive uncertainty. The former invites the latter.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#25

The proposed link between civic participation ("cooperation") and both inequality and political polarization is a strange one to me, since civic participation seems like it would be a local phenomenon, and both inequality and political polarization mostly show up as regional differences rather than differences within communities. Sure, the political space between Allegany County, NY (low income and trump voting) and…

Maybe we're a bit more varied here in the UK and this is anecdata but I'm a member of a running club that has at one end of the spectrum members of the Conservative party through to anarcho-vegans.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#26
post #15
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have so many datasets available now that it's so easy to graph things against each other and notice things that may be coincidentally related, or even causally related, and then tell some kind of story about where the relationship came from. Yeah, it's a fun website -- but you could say that about just about any claimed correlation. Meanwhile, for those who have been around long enough to have a sense for the 'bar…

> Meanwhile, for those who have been around long enough to have a sense for the 'barometric' changes he's talking about -- the shift in the basic, underlying "we're-all-in-this-together" ethos has been not just noticeable, but profound. Probably a lot more work needs to be done to find a solid statistical basis behind this observation (if this is at all possible). I need to see some very solid evidence before I chang…

Fair point - it's very tricky to measure.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#27

The proposed link between civic participation ("cooperation") and both inequality and political polarization is a strange one to me, since civic participation seems like it would be a local phenomenon, and both inequality and political polarization mostly show up as regional differences rather than differences within communities. Sure, the political space between Allegany County, NY (low income and trump voting) and…

Maybe we're a bit more varied here in the UK and this is anecdata but I'm a member of a running club that has at one end of the spectrum members of the Conservative party through to anarcho-vegans.

Yeah - sure I'm not literally saying that all clubs are full of people with identical politics. I'm just pointing out that most communities in America are actually not that diverse or polarized.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#28
post #9

Here's a question. Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically? That is, you get to vote, there's more than one candidate, and the incumbents and their designated successors sometimes get kicked out? Do you belong to any organization which has member meetings in which members can vote and make decisions binding on the organization?

usa cycling

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#29
post #10
post #9

Here's a question. Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically? That is, you get to vote, there's more than one candidate, and the incumbents and their designated successors sometimes get kicked out? Do you belong to any organization which has member meetings in which members can vote and make decisions binding on the organization?

Lots of clubs/community orgs are like this. The community soccer org for the city I grew up in had lots of turnover in the management due to voting.

The best sports and social clubs I've been a member of generally try to avoid too many political games although they are nominally democratic.

Club politics is generally tiresome, few people join a tennis club or hackerspace to play politics, they want to play tennis or make things.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#30
post #10
post #9

Here's a question. Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically? That is, you get to vote, there's more than one candidate, and the incumbents and their designated successors sometimes get kicked out? Do you belong to any organization which has member meetings in which members can vote and make decisions binding on the organization?

Lots of clubs/community orgs are like this. The community soccer org for the city I grew up in had lots of turnover in the management due to voting.

In my experience (have served in a few of these) it's hard enough to find one person willing serve in each organizational position. Contested elections are almost never seen.
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