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Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

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21–30 of 68 posts

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#21
On a long enough timescale, isn't our own solar system expected to change? It's not exactly proven to be stable, and several theories of its formation include radical changes after periods of stability. (Jupiter is supposed to have wandered all over the place.)

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And anyone recalling the film 2001 will know what signals they'll be picking up ... (for those who haven't seen it, 'they' receive images dating from the 1930s or thereabouts with a certain someone making what is today, an unacceptable (for most of us one hopes) salute)

I believe you're thinking of Contact, not 2001.

God, thought just occurred to me... imagine if we received that (re)transmission in this political climate...

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#24
post #16
post #15

It's only a matter of time until someone notices we have a very weird spectral emission peaking around the TV and FM radio broadcast frequencies...

And anyone recalling the film 2001 will know what signals they'll be picking up ... (for those who haven't seen it, 'they' receive images dating from the 1930s or thereabouts with a certain someone making what is today, an unacceptable (for most of us one hopes) salute)

[deleted]

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#25
post #15

It's only a matter of time until someone notices we have a very weird spectral emission peaking around the TV and FM radio broadcast frequencies...

The free space path loss from Earth to Alpha Centauri (4.4 ly) is ~345 dB at 100 MHz (FM broadcast). Our broadcast signals, with their relatively non-directional radiation patterns, are well below the thermal noise floor long before they reach anyone who might be listening for them.

UHF television broadcasts fare even worse because they have a much wider bandwidth and an even greater free space path loss.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#27
I don't think "hopelessly wrong" is correct, but we live in the era of clickbait titles, so of course it's not correct. Also, how "long term" is he talking? Because sure, in a billion years, provided Voyager isn't swallowed up by a star, the map is not going to be useful. I actually designed (and got) a tattoo based on this design, except that I updated the data on my version with data from newer astronomical catalogues, in particular a 2002 Australian survey that updated most of the p-dot values for these pulsars. Decoding the original period/p-dot values and locating the pulsars from the catalog data wasn't too hard, and some time after that effort but before I actually got the tattoo, I discovered a work online in which someone else had also decoded the p-dot values and found which pulsars they used. I compared his list to my own and was happy to discover we'd found the same. I also re-encoded the p-dot values which originally had Voyager's "launch date" with the value of my birthdate. I dropped a couple of the pulsars because the 1969 data was very far off from the 2002 data, crossing some imaginary error threshold in my mind enough to be dropped from the map. I personally believe the p-dot values are sufficiently precise as to be uniquely or nearly uniquely identifier data for the pulsars, I mean in the fantasy universe in which this actually amounts to something. It's estimated there are 200,000 pulsars in our galaxy. Surely ET has a computer he can use? Again, in this imaginary universe where ET finds Voyager (or me) and really sets out to crack the code, and we're not using some stupid scenario in which it's found in a billion years...

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#28
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, after reading the three body series I feel like I'm much more skeptical about sending out Earths location indiscriminately. Spoiler: One of the central tenets of this book is that the most logical course of action for any alien discovering another life form, is to destroy it immediately. The story is pretty coherent, but if anyone has references to any scientific/theoretical work on this I'd be very interested i…

I don't buy it, at least not as stated in the book. The axioms in the book are flawed, and there are some unspoken axioms that aren't explicitly laid out. 1. Destroying a civilization isn't risk free. If you destroy a nearby star system that harbors life, you better be sure that your weapon can't be traced back to you, by either any observers, or by the survivors. (See Forge of God & The Anvil of the Stars[1] for a s…

Regarding point the second point. I assume there's a cost associated with using the weapon, even if it's untraceable.

Regarding the Berserkers, it sounds a bit like a grey-goo scenario with self-replicating machines that wipe out all life. My personal feeling is that these scenarios are unlikely. If it were possible, it would have happened already... but it would be interesting to hear more systematic discussion of this point.

With my brief googling, I've found it pretty difficult to find anything on real "cosmic sociology". The research work I've found has mostly focused on human colonization of other worlds. I feel like it would make fun reading if there's anything out there.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#30
I'm not anywhere near being well-versed in astronomy, so I cannot judge how hard that problem actually is, but let me present a counterpoint/food for thought:

40 years ago, we launched a probe with what we though as of then as being a nice, permanent map of our location. Since then, we learned that there are many more 'beacons' in the universe than those we have chosen and pointed out in our 'map', and they change randomly or pseudorandomly, so with our current knowledge, receiving such probe with such map, we would be SOL to decode it.

But, 40 years ago, there was a term 'supercomputer' which meant an 80 MHz, 5 ton, >100 kW-eating monster. Nowadays, we carry billions of 150 gram glass slates in our pockets with 100-times the computing power, use it to play games, and we throw around desktop/rig computing power to shift balances between virtual bank accounts (PoW-based cryptocurrencies). What would be an unthinkable feat on the planet-wide energetic and hardware level back than, a grad student can do on their gaming device (CUDA etc.) nowadays as a semestral project, building on existing open-source libraries and published reproducible research.

What will be possible [on our humanity scale] in another 40 years? 400 years? 40000 years?

Wouldn't they just intercept the probe and immediately think, oh, species 5618 thought back then that a dozen of pulsars engraved on a metal disk would make a good map, how cute, let's run a configuration-search on our astronomical recordings and on next orbital period, a PhD student presents an interstellar-conference paper on three possible locations in the known history where and when the species 5618 would observe just this specific pulsar configuration recorded on the probe... Ok, what if they started recording the observable universe only after we recorded our map? They may not have the exact stellar configuration in their big data clouds, but using SETI-like-network, in another orbital period, they will simulate historical pulsar configurations back before they started recording them and extrapolate similar results. This is just a 'linear' prediction on our technology, but what about a complete paradigm shift? What if they can browse in a block universe just like we page through a book and can just rewind and fast forward looking in the spacetime searching for the configuration recorded on the probe?

Or, we will develop FTL in tens/hundreds/thousands of years, overtake the Voyager with spacecraft just like taking off a private Cessna at a local hobby airport, grab it as a historical artifact for the museum and launch a better map, or, we would know better by then and rather quietly destroy it, remain silent and be thankful it wasn't seen by anything (Hawking's position on contacting alien life).

An earth bound semi-fictional example: Say a secluded culture thinks that recording rains, droughts, good and bad harvests will benefit their children. Some time later they will find that they have a full Library of Alexandria of records and noone, never ever, in many human lives would sift through all the recordings to find anything useful. Some more time later they will even find about climate zones and think that their collected records are truly worthless and useless. On the other hand, if our current selves find such records - if they are fairly recent, we have complete satellite imagery of the place. We have pretty nice worldwide temperature, rain, air pressure recordings. If it is a bit older, we still have more sparse weather records, so with some effort, we can still search for their rain-drought patterns. We can carbon date it. We can or cannot see our atmospheric nuclear tests in their smelting. We can digitally cross-reference digitized historical written records from many cultures (probably not now, mind you, semi-fictional). We can manually cross-reference their observations with known folklore from around the world. We can drill Antarctica/permafrost layers to evaluate climate back then. We can date it before/after/around great extinction events, geological eras at least...

Just because we just realized that the IRL situation is much more complex than we thought, it doesn't mean that what we recorded back then and sent out is "hopelessly wrong" [and useless].

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