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Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#21

Post by pawy »

kastnerkyle wrote: post #20
pawy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are building a "smarter" arpegiator. If you really want to build a tool used by producers then it would be required to be a VST in the first place. But then I really doubt (as an amateur composer) than any artist could get anywhere with this. How can I transmit my feelings trough a bunch of data i've no control over ?

You mean something like this? [0] As far as I know from the mailing list, they are always working on more tools for integration so musicians can use them in different environments and different ways. As an amateur composer as well, I have found uses for these types of models even without plugins / with "data I have no control over" for small flashes of interesting motifs/progressions that I rework, modify, and expand…

Depending on the usage you make, there are some cool applications. But then as you said you rework the material anyway to create your own thing.

At best it can inspire.

edit : thus the title should have been "rearranging sound with machine learning" ; it's not music nor art.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#22

Post by tachyonbeam »

QAPereo wrote: post #18
tachyonbeam wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the end game of this sort of thing would be to, one day, have an app that can generate endless new music just for you, based on your taste.

That really sounds like the computer would have to understand you and your shifting moods better than most people could.

Which might actually be quite possible. At the very least, I'm sure machine learning can have a better understanding of your general musical taste than most of your friends do.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#23

Post by QAPereo »

tachyonbeam wrote: post #22
QAPereo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really sounds like the computer would have to understand you and your shifting moods better than most people could.

Which might actually be quite possible. At the very least, I'm sure machine learning can have a better understanding of your general musical taste than most of your friends do.

That's a pretty exciting prospect then, and I could imagine even a mediocre implementation being almost catastrophically popular.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#25

Post by ejfox »

pawy wrote: post #11

Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU and I'm really deeply sadden that people doesn't get this before hand. Try expressing feelings and stop using that word that has absolutely nothing to do with machine learning. The very very very basic Idea of machine learning is at…

Art- and in fact, most creative endeavors often DO involve creating many things until you discover something "cool".

With my personal experiments with generative art, I think of the machine almost as a work assistant. I have a rough idea of what I'm going for, and the ways to attempt it, and I teach that to my computer using code. But then I go away from the computer and out into the world and drink coffee, sketch in my notebook, and in the meantime my computerized assistant is back home working on draft after draft of my latest piece of art.

I come home and I see what he's done, and most of it isn't great, but occasionally there is a gem! I look at what he did for that gem and then encourage him to do more of that, and then go back out into the world. I highly disagree that machine learning is the opposite of art.

If you go to any traditional artist's studio you will often find notebooks filled with discarded sketches and ideas. Paintings with color combinations or techniques that weren't ideal. This is almost exactly the same process. And I would argue that process is exactly what art is.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#26

Post by pawy »

ejfox wrote: post #25
pawy wrote: post #11

Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU and I'm really deeply sadden that people doesn't get this before hand. Try expressing feelings and stop using that word that has absolutely nothing to do with machine learning. The very very very basic Idea of machine learning is at…

Art- and in fact, most creative endeavors often DO involve creating many things until you discover something "cool". With my personal experiments with generative art, I think of the machine almost as a work assistant. I have a rough idea of what I'm going for, and the ways to attempt it, and I teach that to my computer using code. But then I go away from the computer and out into the world and drink coffee, sketch in…

"most creative endeavors often do involve CREATING many things" ; not generating them.

You've "selected" something you liked. You are no artist and should not call your self like that. If you do, you will never inspire "simple" people.

At least if you do it would become the MacDonald of art.

Do nothing, sit and say to the bot if it fits you or not.

You're even worse than a DJ. The DJ actually works his selection and works his transitions.

Sketches have been written out of artist mind. Not by some selection that fits you or not.

Art is work.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#27

Post by ejfox »

pawy wrote: post #26
ejfox wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art- and in fact, most creative endeavors often DO involve creating many things until you discover something "cool". With my personal experiments with generative art, I think of the machine almost as a work assistant. I have a rough idea of what I'm going for, and the ways to attempt it, and I teach that to my computer using code. But then I go away from the computer and out into the world and drink coffee, sketch in…

"most creative endeavors often do involve CREATING many things" ; not generating them. You've "selected" something you liked. You are no artist and should not call your self like that. If you do, you will never inspire "simple" people. At least if you do it would become the MacDonald of art. Do nothing, sit and say to the bot if it fits you or not. You're even worse than a DJ. The DJ actually works his selection and…

What is the difference between creation and generation?

What is the difference between me selecting the specific frame made by a generative algorithm and photographer picking a specific moment in time to capture a frame?

What's the difference between me using a generative algorithm and Michelangelo using assistants to paint the Sistine Chapel?

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#28

Post by blacksmith_tb »

pawy wrote: post #11

Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU and I'm really deeply sadden that people doesn't get this before hand. Try expressing feelings and stop using that word that has absolutely nothing to do with machine learning. The very very very basic Idea of machine learning is at…

I am trying to understand your strong negative reaction as charitably as I can. Would it be fair say that for you because there was no mind (and also no feelings) associated with it, something isn't art? I am not saying I think it's good art, but there are clearly many pieces of art (say found art, or lots of conceptual art) that doesn't involve those - and while I may not like it, but it is generally accepted to be art.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#29

Post by bluetwo »

A wide-ranging talk on computer generated art, music, stories, humor, etc.

I liked listening to it, but am disappointed by the field's disregard for existing methods of structure. "We don't use rules".... well, rules have helped mankind progress forward for hundreds of thousands of years.

Just because they don't easily transfer into your ML model doesn't mean they are useless. Maybe the model needs to learn some new tricks.

Re: Making Music and Art Through Machine Learning

#30

Post by spot »

pawy wrote: post #11

Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU and I'm really deeply sadden that people doesn't get this before hand. Try expressing feelings and stop using that word that has absolutely nothing to do with machine learning. The very very very basic Idea of machine learning is at…

"[Art is] the expression of mind."

Right. Now, my mind is full of thoughts and emotions about ML. And I use ML to make some videos that express my thoughts. And you judge my work and say it's not art? Really I profoundly disagree.

Saying something is "not art" is normally a tough argument to make. To say it about a whole category of practice is nearly impossible.

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