Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years • Hacker News Board

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#21

Post by flukus » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:06 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #19

flukus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think they should have that level of control over something 65,000 which they may have no connection too. More worrying is that I read previously that they had veto rights over any published findings as well, which creates all sorts of integrity problems.

> More worrying is that I read previously that they had veto rights over any published findings as well, which creates all sorts of integrity problems. Then it should definitely be captured in the story. As a potential conflict of interest.

It was in this one (http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-07-20/aboriginal-she...) from the (Australian) ABC, which I assume is the nytimes source:

> Under the agreement, the Mirarr people have had a right to veto the excavation at any time, control over the artefacts and final say about findings announced about the site.

This leaves it open to abuse like we see in other fields where they can conduct an experiment 10 times and only publish the result that comes out how they want.

For the record, I have no reason to believe the scientists involved are being dishonest, but imposing these conditions should not be acceptable.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#22

Post by flukus » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:14 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #20

This is one of my favorite things about Australia, because science has absolutely no explanation for how humans arrived in Australia that long ago. It massively predates any boats, and there are no boats in the history of the Aboriginals. In fact nobody has even really bothered to try an explain it, because it's way, way, way outside the story that everyone came out of Africa.

> This is one of my favorite things about Australia, because science has absolutely no explanation for how humans arrived in Australia that long ago.

It's perfectly explainable, they arrived by boat. The exact time and migration path is still pretty open for interpretation and revision, but building boats is not beyond the capability of the people at the time. All they needed was a fairly simple raft.

>In fact nobody has even really bothered to try an explain it, because it's way, way, way outside the story that everyone came out of Africa.

No it isn't, it's perfectly consistent with the out of africa hypothesis.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#23

Post by dalbasal » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:15 AM UTC

“It puts to bed the whole idea that humans wiped them (megafauna) out,” said Dr. Clarkson. “We’re talking 20,000 to 25,000 years of coexistence.”

Does it? Is it not still possible that human populations increased, new (less mgafauna friendly) cultures emerged or subsequent migrations caused one of these? Humans co-existed with large animals in many places, before causing extinctions at later points.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#24

Post by fdej » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:19 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #20

This is one of my favorite things about Australia, because science has absolutely no explanation for how humans arrived in Australia that long ago. It massively predates any boats, and there are no boats in the history of the Aboriginals. In fact nobody has even really bothered to try an explain it, because it's way, way, way outside the story that everyone came out of Africa.

Why? Humans first migrated out of Africa at least 100,000 years ago, which would give plenty of time to reach Australia by 65,000 years ago. The technology to build boats or rafts could easily have been forgotten over thousands of years if seafaring was not crucial to surviving on the new continent.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#25

Post by beefsack » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:32 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #17

sohkamyung wrote: post #9

I prefer the version published in The Conversation [1] by the researches themselves. It contains more details including one part left out of the NYTimes version: that the work was done with the approval of the Aboriginal people who control the site: "To make new research possible, a landmark agreement was reached between the University of Queensland (and associated researchers) and the Gundjeihmi Aboriginal Corporati…

I really don't think they should have that level of control over something 65,000 which they may have no connection too. More worrying is that I read previously that they had veto rights over any published findings as well, which creates all sorts of integrity problems.

Culture is one of the vitally important things which make us unique as humans.

Both as an Australian and as a linguist it's painful to understand how quickly indigenous culture here is being lost; my narrow and focused view is on language but the rate at which Aboriginal languages are dying at is absolutely alarming.

Protecting culturally significant sites here is of vital importance both for historical reasons as well as to the lives of modern indigenous Australians.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#26

Post by flukus » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:39 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #23

“It puts to bed the whole idea that humans wiped them (megafauna) out,” said Dr. Clarkson. “We’re talking 20,000 to 25,000 years of coexistence.” Does it? Is it not still possible that human populations increased, new (less mgafauna friendly) cultures emerged or subsequent migrations caused one of these? Humans co-existed with large animals in many places, before causing extinctions at later points.

Multiple migration theories have been all but put to bed I think, but the current theory seems to be that the migration path was mostly coastal and only pushing inland later. That leaves plenty of room for humans to be the cause of extinction.

I really don't understand why it's so hard to accept that humans are the cause, it seems to be a part of the noble savage myth.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#27

Post by nikbackm » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:17 AM UTC

fdej wrote: post #24

grecy wrote: post #20

This is one of my favorite things about Australia, because science has absolutely no explanation for how humans arrived in Australia that long ago. It massively predates any boats, and there are no boats in the history of the Aboriginals. In fact nobody has even really bothered to try an explain it, because it's way, way, way outside the story that everyone came out of Africa.

Why? Humans first migrated out of Africa at least 100,000 years ago, which would give plenty of time to reach Australia by 65,000 years ago. The technology to build boats or rafts could easily have been forgotten over thousands of years if seafaring was not crucial to surviving on the new continent.

Wasn't the sea levels lower at that time as well?

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#28

Post by peter303 » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:18 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #20

This is one of my favorite things about Australia, because science has absolutely no explanation for how humans arrived in Australia that long ago. It massively predates any boats, and there are no boats in the history of the Aboriginals. In fact nobody has even really bothered to try an explain it, because it's way, way, way outside the story that everyone came out of Africa.

The seahore-travel-travel hypothesis, that people traveled the coastline in boats, would have most of its evidence hidden along shorelines inudated by a hundred meters deper water at that time.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#29

Post by peter303 » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:18 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #20

This is one of my favorite things about Australia, because science has absolutely no explanation for how humans arrived in Australia that long ago. It massively predates any boats, and there are no boats in the history of the Aboriginals. In fact nobody has even really bothered to try an explain it, because it's way, way, way outside the story that everyone came out of Africa.

The seahore-travel-travel hypothesis, that people traveled the coastline in boats, would have most of its evidence hidden along shorelines inudated by a hundred meters deper water at that time.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#30

Post by hyperdunc » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:19 AM UTC

beefsack wrote: post #25

flukus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think they should have that level of control over something 65,000 which they may have no connection too. More worrying is that I read previously that they had veto rights over any published findings as well, which creates all sorts of integrity problems.

Culture is one of the vitally important things which make us unique as humans. Both as an Australian and as a linguist it's painful to understand how quickly indigenous culture here is being lost; my narrow and focused view is on language but the rate at which Aboriginal languages are dying at is absolutely alarming. Protecting culturally significant sites here is of vital importance both for historical reasons as we…

Everything changes. All those indigenous languages are going to be lost in the sense they won't be actively used anymore - and that's not a bad thing.

Even English will ultimately be lost, although it will likely be through the mechanisms of language evolution rather than first becoming moribund.

Trying to preserving language and culture for its own sake is somewhat selfish, because it restricts individuals' experience. Better to take the good parts and incorporate them into daily life. The rest can remain in the tomes of history.