Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#21

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

trendia wrote: post #15

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

This is my disagreement with the article as well. I agree with the author that Amazon Fulfillment should need to give employees adequate breaks, but I don't agree that the rules make Amazon a government: they don't have law enforcement, a court system, the power to make laws, an army, etc. At least a majority of these are necessary to be considered a government.

[deleted]

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#22

Post by nxsynonym » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

Yeah, I don't understand the need to compare the structure of a business to the structure of a countries government in the first place.

Employment relationships are contractual, and completely voluntary. People need income to live, sure, but they are not forced to work for any one person or company to receive that income.

The working conditions mentioned in the article are insane, but you "vote" by choosing not to work for that company.

I also take issue with "Like Louis XIV’s government, the typical American workplace is kept private from those it governs." What world is the author living in where normal governments disclose 100% of the information they hold or receive?

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#23

Post by jerrylives » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #11

djmips wrote: post #4

Yep, and then people said we need a businessman running America and surprise they got someone who wants to run it like a dictatorship.

I don't see it that way at all. Trump is not responsible for what has taken place here, as fun as it is to blame him. I see him as someone who is trying to undo a lot of the problems and fix them but he has no support from either the Democrats or the Republicans because both sides are vested in continuing the slave plantation that we have here in service of the ultra .01%. In Trump, we have a guy who is part of the s…

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#24

Post by GhostVII » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

cphoover wrote: post #19

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

Haven't read the article... but my response to you is that not every "contractual" agreement is voluntary. Think people working minimum wage jobs to feed their children, or children working in sweatshops in asia. I get what you are saying... that it is a click bait title, but the fact remains that the late-stage capitalistic hierarchies that form are not totally unlike other labor systems (indentured servitude/slaver…

How is a minimum wage job not optional? People stay in their minimum wage jobs because it is better than their other options, not because the company forces them too. Really, the company giving the person their minimum wage job is more 'moral' than the other companies in the area, because the other companies offered an even worse job, or didn't offer one at all.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#25

Post by mac01021 » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #11

djmips wrote: post #4

Yep, and then people said we need a businessman running America and surprise they got someone who wants to run it like a dictatorship.

I don't see it that way at all. Trump is not responsible for what has taken place here, as fun as it is to blame him. I see him as someone who is trying to undo a lot of the problems and fix them but he has no support from either the Democrats or the Republicans because both sides are vested in continuing the slave plantation that we have here in service of the ultra .01%. In Trump, we have a guy who is part of the s…

> we're headed for third world style living, and let's be honest--a large number of Americans are already living in third world squalor.

What constitutes third world squalor? Not many Americans are starving, having to make do without indoor plumbing, or spending 12 hours per day collecting firewood.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#26

Post by GhostVII » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:22 PM UTC

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #10

fallingfrog wrote: post #9

Agree. The central idea behind capitalism is a hard logical division between employment and ownership, so it's almost tautological to say that workplaces are small tyrannies- but it's good to see someone say it. I mean, I think the real issue with our democracy might be that we've never experienced it on a personal level, so we don't really understand how government by the people is even supposed to work. Our day to…

I have the same thoughts every July 4th. I ask myself 'what exactly am I celebrating here?' Our rights and freedoms seem heavily curtailed and most people have to work and are wage slaves in service of their debts. I am debt-free, but have not yet managed to extract myself from this system. Health insurance is a big reason why. Also, there are few part-time jobs that pay anything and although I have been attempting a…

> It's either I kill my body as a software developer and make decent money but work way too much

If you are a half decent developer, there are tonnes of good paying software jobs with decent hours, it's probably one of the easiest high paying jobs in the world...

I think what you are celebrating on July 4 is that you have free speech, and are in such a good position that you are actually trying to downscale your career from one of the best careers in the world.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#27

Post by kesselvon » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #11

djmips wrote: post #4

Yep, and then people said we need a businessman running America and surprise they got someone who wants to run it like a dictatorship.

I don't see it that way at all. Trump is not responsible for what has taken place here, as fun as it is to blame him. I see him as someone who is trying to undo a lot of the problems and fix them but he has no support from either the Democrats or the Republicans because both sides are vested in continuing the slave plantation that we have here in service of the ultra .01%. In Trump, we have a guy who is part of the s…

Trump isn't interested in actually fixing things, and I don't know what evidence has led you believe he is.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#28

Post by subway » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #24

cphoover wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't read the article... but my response to you is that not every "contractual" agreement is voluntary. Think people working minimum wage jobs to feed their children, or children working in sweatshops in asia. I get what you are saying... that it is a click bait title, but the fact remains that the late-stage capitalistic hierarchies that form are not totally unlike other labor systems (indentured servitude/slaver…

How is a minimum wage job not optional? People stay in their minimum wage jobs because it is better than their other options, not because the company forces them too. Really, the company giving the person their minimum wage job is more 'moral' than the other companies in the area, because the other companies offered an even worse job, or didn't offer one at all.

I mean, I guess giving up and letting your family or yourself starve is an option.

For a lot of folks in low wage positions, the mere act of looking for an alternative puts their current wages in jeopardy. Their employer may decide they're now disloyal and sack them. They bring home less money because they have to spend unpaid time searching for a new gig -- they'd do it outside of work hours, but at some point you have to sleep and feed the kids, right?

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#29

Post by namlem » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #22

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

Yeah, I don't understand the need to compare the structure of a business to the structure of a countries government in the first place. Employment relationships are contractual, and completely voluntary. People need income to live, sure, but they are not forced to work for any one person or company to receive that income. The working conditions mentioned in the article are insane, but you "vote" by choosing not to wo…

Eh I don't know if I would describe all employment contracts as completely voluntary. There are plenty of workers without the ability to change jobs easily. If you're broke, have kids, and have few skills, it's very hard to change careers.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#30

Post by crdoconnor » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #22

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

Yeah, I don't understand the need to compare the structure of a business to the structure of a countries government in the first place. Employment relationships are contractual, and completely voluntary. People need income to live, sure, but they are not forced to work for any one person or company to receive that income. The working conditions mentioned in the article are insane, but you "vote" by choosing not to wo…

>completely voluntary. People need income to live, sure, but they are not forced to work for any one person

Would chattel slavery be voluntary too if the slaves had a degree of choice over which master used them?