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I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

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Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#21

Post by wyager »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #4
Aloha wrote: post #3

Part of why healthcare is so expensive today, is we're capable of saving so many more lives than before. As little as a generation ago, many more would have died, people who now go on to live fruitful productive lives.

America spends more per capita than any other first world country for worse outcomes [1]. Healthcare is expensive because of the profit motive. Single payer isn't implemented for (mostly) the same reason. 60% of Americans want single payer [2]. "A majority of Americans say it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have health care coverage. And a growing share now supports a “single pay…

Having used healthcare in a wide variety of settings, super-deregulated private healthcare in countries like India, Mexico, etc. is vastly superior to government-run healthcare or the US's red-tape-choked "private" healthcare system.

I just pay for everything under the table with cash and it's much cheaper. If doctors can avoid American "insurance" providers (which are not allowed to function as actual insurers, and have to keep margins up by being as stingy as possible), they can save a lot of money and effort.

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#22

Post by wyager »

lstamour wrote: post #10
hkmurakami wrote: post #5

> It was eye-opening to see just how low our discourse has sunk, to be forced to acknowledge that what passes for debate in the age of the internet is often nothing more than spewing venom at the other side. How are we ever supposed to find a solution that’s better than either Trumpcare or Obamacare if we can’t even shut up long enough to recognize the humanity in the people on the other side of the debate? So people…

Who sets the numbers and why, though? How much is profit, how much should be profit, when it comes to human health and rehabilitation whether mental or physical assistance is required? Or, ignoring profit, why take away public funding to programs for poor people just to provide tax breaks to rich folks? How much is a dollar worth to each individual, relatively-speaking? There are few easy answers, except (almost) eve…

Profit doesn't need to have anything to do with it.

It doesn't make economic sense to spend, as an extreme example, $500M of public money to save one life. If we did whatever medical treatments we could, at whatever cost, we'd go broke as a society very quickly.

Utilitarian optimization places some upper bound on the amount of money we should be willing to spend to save a life. Making people pay for their own care approximates this bound but with more variance.

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#23

Post by wyager »

mnm1 wrote: post #2

It's depressing to me to think that people hate others so much that they would go to such great lengths to keep others from getting healthcare and ensure their demise. These same people would have no problem accepting healthcare from others if it was their lives that were in danger. I truly cannot fathom the hypocrisy, hate, and cruelty that must exist in these people's hearts towards their fellow citizens.

In what way does wanting to keep what I earn mean I "hate others"? I feel sad when I walk by homeless people, but I don't stop and give them everything I can afford until I'm impoverished. Do you? If not, why do you hate others so much that you want to "keep them from getting housing"?

Hopefully you see why your argument is disingenuous. If you're really so hard on hypocrisy, you should go out right now and give every last penny to someone else's medical expenses. Or are you only generous enough to spend other people's money?

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#25

Post by everdayimhustln »

quantummkv wrote: post #14

Am i missing something in here or are the costs in that bill really this high? $22,526 for room boarding for 2 weeks? Over here in India my grandma's bypass surgery costed somewhat about $10,000. That included everything including the stent, medicines and boarding, that too at a renowned, premiere private hospital. Is this a special case or are healthcare costs generally this high in America?

In America, hospitals mostly charge whatever they want.

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#26

Post by tehlike »

justboxing wrote: post #16
quantummkv wrote: post #14

Am i missing something in here or are the costs in that bill really this high? $22,526 for room boarding for 2 weeks? Over here in India my grandma's bypass surgery costed somewhat about $10,000. That included everything including the stent, medicines and boarding, that too at a renowned, premiere private hospital. Is this a special case or are healthcare costs generally this high in America?

> are healthcare costs generally this high in America Yes they are ridiculously high, even after factoring in cost of living / currency rates or as a %age of monthly salary, if you are comparing it to costs in a different country. 1 month after coming here (to America) from India (1999) I had to get wax from my left ear cleaned as it was blocking my hearing. They squirted some liquid in my ear and got the wax out. 2…

If you or on high deductible plan, consider hsa :)

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#27

Post by siidooloo »

wyager wrote: post #23
mnm1 wrote: post #2

It's depressing to me to think that people hate others so much that they would go to such great lengths to keep others from getting healthcare and ensure their demise. These same people would have no problem accepting healthcare from others if it was their lives that were in danger. I truly cannot fathom the hypocrisy, hate, and cruelty that must exist in these people's hearts towards their fellow citizens.

In what way does wanting to keep what I earn mean I "hate others"? I feel sad when I walk by homeless people, but I don't stop and give them everything I can afford until I'm impoverished. Do you? If not, why do you hate others so much that you want to "keep them from getting housing"? Hopefully you see why your argument is disingenuous. If you're really so hard on hypocrisy, you should go out right now and give ever…

Maybe you didn't read the story but people were sending her death threats.

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#28

Post by vidoc »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #13
ajmurmann wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be for single part until I listened to a recent episode of econtalk ( http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/06/christy_ford_ch.htm... ). Christy Ford described how the current medical system evolved and how the American Medical Association made the current, insurance based system happen. Before this we used to for example multi-disciplineray offices of doctors that you could directly buy health care coverag…

I have to respectfully disagree. It's time to burn down the current system and go straight to single payer. Collect premiums via payroll taxes->fund healthcare providers. That greatly simplifies it, but there are many other first world models we can pick from. This is not hard.

> Collect premiums via payroll taxes->fund healthcare providers. That greatly simplifies it, but there are many other first world models we can pick from. This is not hard.

I entirely agree with you on that and your assessment on how the finance/tax part of it is not as scary as some would think, it might even perhaps not be the hardest part of the problem.

My personal belief in single-payer is that it is the only way to create a leverage to either create a public offer of healthcare goods and service, or radically modify the power imbalance and drive the prices of goods and services way down. The thing that worries me is that in both cases, what I understand as being a total healthcare bubble, which I am sure is a well organized lobby, won't exactly be thrilled at letting things happen without a fight :)

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#29

Post by Tempest1981 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8
jquery wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are "worse outcomes" controlled for lifestyle choices, demographics, and obesity? Or is it a stepping stone to a soapbox?

Life expectancy, infant mortality, and quality of care. http://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0011_health-outcomes Americans being "fat", sedentary, and certain demographics having expensive chronic illnesses aren't the cause (except perhaps heart attack mortality, which I'm not going to spend the time this evening digging into), if that's your implication.

I saw the chart, but I don't see how it shows the causes. Why don't unhealthy lifestyles and obesity cost us more?

Re: I shared my toddler's hospital bill on Twitter

#30

Post by mettamage »

quantummkv wrote: post #14

Am i missing something in here or are the costs in that bill really this high? $22,526 for room boarding for 2 weeks? Over here in India my grandma's bypass surgery costed somewhat about $10,000. That included everything including the stent, medicines and boarding, that too at a renowned, premiere private hospital. Is this a special case or are healthcare costs generally this high in America?

I once read a blog post of an American doing medical tourism to India. I can't find it now, but I think Americans agree with you.
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