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Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

joshondesign.com

21–30 of 192 posts

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#21
I would _never_ hire this candidate, based on seeing this.

So - the author says that he has "developed some good communication skills". Great! Moving on, let's look at his linkedin page. Quotes from past jobs: "even after our idiot (now ex) CEO canceled the platform.", "wonky JavaEE stuff.".

So, as a hiring manager, from this post + linkedin, I now know that this guy: 1) can reach large audiences, 2) trashes past jobs and colleagues publicly. And thus, I would be terrified of hiring the author, as there seems a 50% chance that this will end with my employers being trashed in the same way. That's just not worth it.

OP: Come on, give yourself the chance to be hired by removing that from linkedin.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#22

Consider smartness as "what you can do with what you know," while experience is "what you know"--then, what follows is that having more experience makes up for not being as clever. Able to make good choices = Intellect * Experience Moreover, employers can _try_ to assess intelligence with whiteboard interviews...but the easier factor to evaluate is experience. It's right there on the resume!

This is usually delineated by wisdom vs intelligence. Intelligence is raw horsepower, and wisdom is the ability to make good decisions.

In the context of older developers, I don't think you can really assume wisdom has been an outcome of all of those years of experience. Wisdom grows with a certain affinity for introspection and self-correction, and not everyone has those traits.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#23
post #18

If an attorney were building an age discrimination case against a person (or entity, per jacquesm below) involved in the rejection of a younger candidate, posts like this are among the evidence I suspect would be used to point to a discriminatory mindset. That said, I'm not a lawyer. If someone were to be making hiring decisions, posts like this discovered during the course of casual googling would oblige the person…

(1) You don't make legal cases against people involved in a hiring rejection, you make a case against a company.

(2) If you are making hiring decisions the appearance of random blog posts should not and will not give you any legal basis not to hire. Legality is encoded in the law, not in blogposts, especially not in blogposts by random passers by. If you were using this as a reason not to hire the person writing the blog post then you might get some mileage out of it but it could also easily backfire.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#24
When talking with young programmers I too often think "well, you are doing that wrong, been there, done that". They don't want to listen. A couple of months later they notice that the gray beard ones were right. From a company perspective, that's just too late, as the money loss is not recoverable.

There is nothing wrong with being a young one with no experience. There is so much wrong when a company has only a bunch of young programmers and no experienced one who lead them.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#25
post #17

Is this post not promoting age discrimination? Isn't age discrimination illegal? Why would discriminating against younger people be any more fair or legal than against against older? I expect discriminating by amount of relevant experience is fair, but that's not the same as age.

Are employers so dumb that they would hire on the basis you're suggesting without considering the arguments put forward in the piece? Young and old have, perhaps, on average, different characteristics worthy of note if you're hiring someone. Is all!

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#26

Consider smartness as "what you can do with what you know," while experience is "what you know"--then, what follows is that having more experience makes up for not being as clever. Able to make good choices = Intellect * Experience Moreover, employers can _try_ to assess intelligence with whiteboard interviews...but the easier factor to evaluate is experience. It's right there on the resume!

Yeah, except 10 years at certain companies could teach you less than 6months to 1 year at one company that's actually doing it right.

I hesitate to try and prescribe an answer for the "how employers should find good employees" question, because it's so difficult, but I imagine the ideal hiring process would:

- Allow candidates a choice on how they want to be tested (take home thing, online code test, whiteboard, whatever else)

- Ask better questions at the abstraction level that would show experience. For example, if you want to know whether someone has experience, give them an architectural diagram (or process diagram) of your current project/workflow/whatever, and ask them how they would improve it (and if they've ever been through the steps they suggest themselves/how they would roll it out).

There was an excellent post on HN a while back detailing what a specific company (whose job is doing interviews, I can't for the life of me remember what company it was), learned from doing thousands and thousands of interviews.

Also I'm not super good at math, but in the equation you posted wouldn't the intellect variable be pretty much equal to experience, and you could make up for one with the other? Or maybe you're implying that the scales for each multiplier are different (like intelligence might only go 1 to 10 but experience might go 1-100?)? I agree with what you're getting at, basically that someone who has seen lot but isn't as clever will often make better choices than someone that's very clever, but completely green.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#29
post #18

If an attorney were building an age discrimination case against a person (or entity, per jacquesm below) involved in the rejection of a younger candidate, posts like this are among the evidence I suspect would be used to point to a discriminatory mindset. That said, I'm not a lawyer. If someone were to be making hiring decisions, posts like this discovered during the course of casual googling would oblige the person…

(1) You don't make legal cases against people involved in a hiring rejection, you make a case against a company. (2) If you are making hiring decisions the appearance of random blog posts should not and will not give you any legal basis not to hire. Legality is encoded in the law, not in blogposts, especially not in blogposts by random passers by. If you were using this as a reason not to hire the person writing the…

> (1) You don't make legal cases against people involved in a hiring rejection, you make a case against a company.

Entirely true. In my defense, I'm not a lawyer. Technically also in my defense: the United States has a bad habit of calling corporations people.

> (2) If you are making hiring decisions the appearance of random blog posts should not and will not give you any legal basis not to hire. Legality is encoded in the law, not in blogposts, especially not in blogposts by random passers by. If you were using this as a reason not to hire the person writing the blog post then you might get some mileage out of it but it could also easily backfire.

This may be true in the Netherlands, but in many states in the US, quite a number of things can be used as grounds to not hire, with the notable exception of anything involving suspect classification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspect_classification). My understanding is that if someone is likely to cause the firm to be responsible for illegal conduct e.g. age discrimination, for many firms, that's a sufficient basis not to hire.

I'd love to be corrected, though.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#30
post #8

How do older programmers deal with coding interviews from companies like facebook / google? i feel like those advantage people who just finished their algorithms class, or have time to practice specifically for it.

I personally wouldn't target those companies. They tend to employ on a permanant basis and the contract market is a bigger payer. Also after a few years in the game you tend to get targetted by recruiters as you may have specialised into certain areas. i.e. finance. So for example, I don't normally look for work, it normally finds me.

Could you give some examples of where you first got your contracts (outside of personal connections)? The contract market seems great (I'm in it right now), but finding decent positions seems pretty difficult without a pre-existing large network.

Also, a lot of the sites that feature contract work ask for way too many details, and are basically a race to the bottom on price, sometimes at the expense of quality, and I don't feel panicked enough yet to join that race.

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