Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 323 posts

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#21

Post by j9461701 »

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them.

The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotistic, vindictive, and now deadlocked.

It reminds me of the old D&D alignment battle: Lawful evil vs. neutral evil. No one cared that the government was kind of evil back while it was obsessively following the rule of law, even if the law was kind of crooked, but under the Chinese it shifted away from that and became whatever is most immediately expedient to those in power. The vaunted "rule of law" became a mere mask for Beijing party politics games.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#22

Post by blackbagboys »

Compared to the reputation for far-seeing technocratic excellence that it acquired in the foreign business press, the CCP leadership has always been astonishingly short-sighted when it comes to foreign policy. The Taiwanese are taking note of what 'one country two systems' means in practice - absolute submission to the ruthless, brutal oligarchy in Beijing. The CCP will crush Hong Kong, destroying everything that made it appealing in the process, and find that in so doing they've permanently alienated Taiwan.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#23

Post by throwaway29847 »

> the authorities have allowed problems to fester, including an affordable housing crisis, a troubled education system and a delayed high-speed rail line.

So not much worse off than any major western city then? In terms of education, the entire USA's system could be described as worse than "troubled".

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#24

Post by toomuchtodo »

j9461701 wrote: post #21

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

Wouldn't China's rule be more chaotic evil?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#25

Post by RangerScience »

j9461701 wrote: post #21

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

Not to doubt you - but, what's your source?

(You sound correct, but I don't know how to verify what you're saying).

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#26

Post by orthoganol »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

No point in talking about China from the lens of traditional communism. China is an authoritarian capitalist country, 'capitalism with Asian values' as is said with Singapore arguably the architect, so being upset about Chinese communists being invited into the country because they are communist is kind of absurd. Not wanting them in the country because they support an oppressive, racist government with more state executions than every other country in the world combined, if they do in fact actually support it, is a legitimate reason to be bothered. Anecdotally living abroad, the Chinese are deeply racist and nationalist, as are all the main East Asian countries really, even younger generations to my surprise, but immigration obviously adversely selects, and even if then, you're quickly going to lose those those views when you move to a new land as a worker.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#27

Post by nailer »

There's a lot to be gloomy about but HK is also really inspirational. At a time when a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom, HK has 20 year olds pushing China to deliver the democracy they promised before 1997.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#28

Post by Fej »

RangerScience wrote: post #25
j9461701 wrote: post #21

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

Not to doubt you - but, what's your source? (You sound correct, but I don't know how to verify what you're saying).

Take a look at history - India, for example, which took one of the most famous revolutionies of all time to escape Britain's rule, which they agitated for because of awful policies like the salt tax.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#29

Post by muninn_ »

yongjik wrote: post #18
muninn_ wrote: post #5

1) Many people. Look at Brexit. You can argue until your face turns blue that it's bad for Britain, it most likely is, but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules. It's pro-self-determination no matter how you look at it. 2) Why should Britain stand up for Hong Kong? They're imperialists while they hold on to it, and then cowards when they give it back to China and say? 3) Almost invariable yes.…

I love how you say Africans would have been better under benevolent European rule and also say Brits should free themselves from European rule (however good it is), in a single comment.

Well, I'm looking at things how they currently are in 2017. I support self-determination of Africans (and subsequently all people), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better off right now under British rule. The British (and others, like the Dutch) never should have colonized Africa (or anywhere else), but they did.

Likewise, I can acknowledge that the British are probably worse-off for leaving the EU, but also support their self-determination.

I'm patiently waiting for the "but muh EU!1!" down votes to come in, even though I'm stating that the British are probably better off in the EU.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#30

Post by eveningcoffee »

muninn_ wrote: post #5

1) Many people. Look at Brexit. You can argue until your face turns blue that it's bad for Britain, it most likely is, but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules. It's pro-self-determination no matter how you look at it. 2) Why should Britain stand up for Hong Kong? They're imperialists while they hold on to it, and then cowards when they give it back to China and say? 3) Almost invariable yes.…

>but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules

I guess you are referring to the European Commission that is an executive branch of the EU institutions i.e. a government. Guess what - in most cases people have no control over who becomes a member of the government - in best case they can vote for a person who becomes a leader of the government (say president in US).

In that regard the selection of the members of the EU government is more transparent and demographic and perhaps also less effective.

President of European Commission: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Appointmen...

Commissioners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner#Appointm...

It is sad that many people do not understand how EU institutions work part due to their ignorance but also due to foreign propaganda.

But I do not argue against British (or any) people to have a right to choose their own way (but I am also not sure that this is what they actually wanted).

Post reply on HN