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Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

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Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#21

Post by jakubp »

Kaizeras wrote: post #16
dejv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you can manage to find even some 40k or 50k/year contract it will put you into about 5% of top earner in population in many central/east european countries. Prices are not as low as you might imagine, but it will give you a very nice life standards. You are not going to be able to afford luxury cars or other luxury items (those costs the same everywhere), but otherwise you would be set.

You will be rich in Eastern Europe but you'll still be considered average/poor in the developed world. Doesn't sound like a huge bargain to me.

If they are local, they may not want to go abroad. The mindset here is that you begin to accumulate large amount of cash savings early in life (20s-30s), which is a huge boon. This gives you a number of benefits compared to your peers in less hot industries: you can buy an apartment and save on rent long term; you can start your own business; you sleep better not worrying about the future; you can negotiate better work conditions because you are not afraid you'll lose a job.

The fact that you would not have the same position abroad (i.e. your cash savings are large locally but small if you lived in a rich country) is not a loss of any kind, it's just a fact that has no bearing on daily life.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#22

Post by expertentipp »

vminkov wrote: post #18
paganel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great number of my Romanian programmer friends have already started to realize this and have stopped emigrating to other European countries. Yeah, moving to a place like London would most probably get you 2 or maximum 3 times the salary you are now getting, but you'd also have to pay rent which is 8 to 10 times higher in London, going out is outrageously expensive (7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub after a day's…

Private health care is very neat and relative to your paycheck it's as affordable as in the Western world

The cult of and preference for private and premium health care services in Central/Eastern Europe are going to backslash terribly in couple of decades. Everything works well as long as the only contributors and users of it are young, healthy, employed people. Then those private health providers and insurers will simply disappear or bankrupt, and people will end up with disintegrated public healthcare if only they will be eligible for it at all.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#23

Post by charlesdm »

1. Opportunities are often global, and location doesn't matter as much if you can sell something via the internet.

2. One big advantage of Bulgaria which is often overlooked, if you do make it: the corporate tax rate is 10%. Meaning you get to keep most of your profits.

> Most of the rich make money through corruption and criminal activities

Is this the case? Could you give an example?

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#24

Post by charlesdm »

psvx wrote: post #20
Kaizeras wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bulgaria may not be entrepreneur friendly or corruption free, but it is not a misery cesspool I absolutely agree with your opinion. There are companies like Telerik (acquired by Progress Software) and Chaos Group which have earned our country a formidable reputation on the global tech scene and it's relatively easy to get recognized. The overall ennvironment is good too - the country has grown a lot since it became…

I'am an ex ChaosGroup employee and I can tell you that if there's one thing I learned while working there, it's that all these constraints are in your mind. You can find talent here. You can create a product here and sell it worldwide and be successful. You can be competetive or better than your western competition. In some ways, doing this is even easier than in the west. My view is that in order to be greatly succe…

I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort?

I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#25

Post by mamon »

galfarragem wrote: post #4

Fortune cookie: a niche IT job in Eastern Europe will, with high probability, grant you the best life standards available worldwide.

That's exactly my case: working as a niche IT specialist I earn about 4500 USD per month after taxes.

It might not be much by SV standards, but in my neighborhood (which is a capital city of one of CE countries) it is top 2% income. It's enough that after maybe 5 years of saving I'm now able to buy 1 bedroom apartment in the city center WITH CASH. Buying 2-3 bedrooms would also be possible if I needed it and decided to live further from the city center. Add cheap healthcare, free education, overall low living cost and that's really hard to top.

I get job offers from UK on regular basis, but never seriously considered it for that reason.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#26

Post by restalis »

expertentipp wrote: post #22
vminkov wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private health care is very neat and relative to your paycheck it's as affordable as in the Western world

The cult of and preference for private and premium health care services in Central/Eastern Europe are going to backslash terribly in couple of decades. Everything works well as long as the only contributors and users of it are young, healthy, employed people. Then those private health providers and insurers will simply disappear or bankrupt, and people will end up with disintegrated public healthcare if only they wil…

The current state of things is not perfect, and the private healthcare probably has indeed the inherent problem you're describing, but it is also maybe the only thing that keeps the bulk of our medical doctors from emigrating to richer parts of Europe.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#27

Post by taway_1212 »

norswap wrote: post #2

> The economy is not developed, making it extremely difficult to convince anybody to buy anything you try to sell them. People are pessimistic and desperate, most of the rich make money through corruption and criminal activities. There is little support or financing for running a legitimate business. Talent is scarce. There is nothing to compete over and nobody to compete with on a local level. Away with the violins…

> only a handful of our tech-oriented students had participated in hackatons, contributed to open-source software, had started a personal blog or answered questions in online help communities such as StackOverflow

People do it mostly because they feel employees expect if of them. I guess employees in Bulgaria have different expectations, so students adjust accordingly.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#28

Post by taway_1212 »

charlesdm wrote: post #24
psvx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'am an ex ChaosGroup employee and I can tell you that if there's one thing I learned while working there, it's that all these constraints are in your mind. You can find talent here. You can create a product here and sell it worldwide and be successful. You can be competetive or better than your western competition. In some ways, doing this is even easier than in the west. My view is that in order to be greatly succe…

I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort? I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

> convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work

With hardly any VC money around, you don't really have a way to pay for those.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#29

Post by vminkov »

charlesdm wrote: post #24
psvx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'am an ex ChaosGroup employee and I can tell you that if there's one thing I learned while working there, it's that all these constraints are in your mind. You can find talent here. You can create a product here and sell it worldwide and be successful. You can be competetive or better than your western competition. In some ways, doing this is even easier than in the west. My view is that in order to be greatly succe…

I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort? I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

That may be valid only if you're able to raise good money but the tech investing culture is quite underdeveloped here. The startup scene needs several bigger exits to make the investors greedy and curious about it and also construction/private property yields huge profits right now, so the tech startups are not the spotlight catcher.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#30

Post by taway_1212 »

mamon wrote: post #25
galfarragem wrote: post #4

Fortune cookie: a niche IT job in Eastern Europe will, with high probability, grant you the best life standards available worldwide.

That's exactly my case: working as a niche IT specialist I earn about 4500 USD per month after taxes. It might not be much by SV standards, but in my neighborhood (which is a capital city of one of CE countries) it is top 2% income. It's enough that after maybe 5 years of saving I'm now able to buy 1 bedroom apartment in the city center WITH CASH. Buying 2-3 bedrooms would also be possible if I needed it and decided…

8500 USD after taxes here :) (in Poland) I spend around $1000 per month of that.
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