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What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

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Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#21

Post by calichoochoo »

throwaway999d wrote: post #19
calichoochoo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of land needed for HSR is much less than that needed to transport current and future population by either air or road. Just look a how much prime land SR-99 and of course many HSR opponents want to widen it.

Nice talking point. Locals actually use roads. They will never use this "bullet" train to go to cities hundreds of miles away from where they live and work.

Think how happy locals will be then that the people traveling farther aren't clogging up the roads.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#22

Post by Gibbon1 »

tehabe wrote: post #7
r00fus wrote: post #2

Does anyone know why using spurs (branch lines) is a bad thing? For example, the BART runs a branch line to Dublin/Pleasanton (and possibly Livermore) but it's not part of the "trunk" to Richmond.

The route is branching, you have a route from LA to San Francisco but it is branching to Merced and later this branch gets extended to Sacramento. It is always a trade-off, you'll never get the perfect route.

I also think that people get way too hung up on the SF to LA bit. Where the California HSR is about a lot more than just that. The SF -> LA -> San Diego part is actually mostly about freeing up airports to handle longer distance national and international traffic.

The central valley part is to tie the central valley cities to the each other and to the coastal cities. I think another part to is try to reduce future sprawl of the central valley cities. Much as people in Bakersfield and Fresno may hate that, it's the right thing to do going forward.

Other part that is totally ignored is that most of the riders will be commuters similar to BART. They won't go from SF to LA, but from SF to San Jose, or Morgan Hill to San Jose, etc.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#23

Post by mistursinistur »

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is a classical example of American "worst of both worlds" governance. People in Bakersfield aren't going to take the HSR to LA, at least not in enough numbers to justify connecting Bakersfield to the HSR. It'd be better to just build a straight-shot HSR and take all the money you save and give a tax break to folks in Bakersfield, or something . But our political system isn't able to achieve that result. How do E…

"People in Bakersfield aren't going to take the HSR to LA, at least not in enough numbers to justify connecting Bakersfield"

This is a pretty vague and evidence-free claim!

Note that thousands of people commute from Bakersfield to LA daily: http://www.bakersfield.com/news/residents-go-to-and-drive-gr.... The commute from the central valley to San Jose is also very heavy.

"take all the money you save and give a tax break to folks in Bakersfield"

I'd like to see HSR critics back up their claims with the ridership forecast model and public benefit accounting that you'd need to compute this tax break.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#24

Post by ubernostrum »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #8
tehabe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany the ICE train mostly runs on existing routes, for newly build routes you have to make the trade off between connecting cities and travel time. But not connecting a city of almost 400,000 people is odd, it should get a stop. I don't think the Deutsche Bahn oder SCNF would be allowed not connecting those cities in their home markets.

I know quite a few folks living out there in the central valley, they are very conservative. They hate the idea of costly train being built with their tax money. That doesn't mean they wouldn't grow to like it eventually, but it wont help ridership in its early and fragile years.

Never underestimate the ability of "very conservative" people, who hate tax-funded infrastructure, to nonetheless be heavy users of that infrastructure.

Remember, even Ayn Rand accepted payments from entitlement programs she hated.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#25

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is a classical example of American "worst of both worlds" governance. People in Bakersfield aren't going to take the HSR to LA, at least not in enough numbers to justify connecting Bakersfield to the HSR. It'd be better to just build a straight-shot HSR and take all the money you save and give a tax break to folks in Bakersfield, or something . But our political system isn't able to achieve that result. How do E…

[deleted]

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#26

Post by powera »

If this project makes financial sense, ideally an existing railroad company would run it.

Berkshire Hathaway (as the owners of the BNSF railroad) is the only US-based company that has the capital and railroad experience to even consider it.

In this situation, I'm not sure how or why the California government would turn away any foreign company willing to do it.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#27

Post by powera »

akamaka wrote: post #20

For those interested, here is a rebuttal article, also from 2012: http://www.cahsrblog.com/2012/07/new-evidence-shows-flaws-in...

When the rebuttal letter literally says "I am aware that there was significant controversy over SNCF in 2010, emanating from their role in deporting French Jews to death camps during WW II", I suspect the reasoning is more political bickering than anything else.

Even if the company did literally support the Nazis during the French occupation over 70 years ago, that's no reason to boycott them now.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#28

Post by rayiner »

ubernostrum wrote: post #24
mixmastamyk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know quite a few folks living out there in the central valley, they are very conservative. They hate the idea of costly train being built with their tax money. That doesn't mean they wouldn't grow to like it eventually, but it wont help ridership in its early and fragile years.

Never underestimate the ability of "very conservative" people, who hate tax-funded infrastructure, to nonetheless be heavy users of that infrastructure. Remember, even Ayn Rand accepted payments from entitlement programs she hated.

It's not a question of liberal versus conservative. The main value of HSR is allowing people to rapidly move between city centers for business or pleasure. How often do people in Bakersfield need to go to LA or SF?

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#29

Post by ajmurmann »

throwaway999d wrote: post #15

HSR is a great example of what happens when a bunch of coastal elites look at the countryside ("flyover country") and assume it's empty and worthless so nobody will object if they run a bulldozer through it for a big government project. On the contrary, California's Central Valley is one of the most vibrant and important areas of the state with property claims going back to the homesteading period. So shocking that t…

Can you explain what's "vibrant" about the central valley? Their economy certainly is not.

Re: What I learned today about SNCF and California HSR (2012)

#30

Post by tehabe »

rayiner wrote: post #28
ubernostrum wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never underestimate the ability of "very conservative" people, who hate tax-funded infrastructure, to nonetheless be heavy users of that infrastructure. Remember, even Ayn Rand accepted payments from entitlement programs she hated.

It's not a question of liberal versus conservative. The main value of HSR is allowing people to rapidly move between city centers for business or pleasure. How often do people in Bakersfield need to go to LA or SF?

As someone else noted in this discussion, the train doesn't just stop in LA, Bakersfield, and San Francisco. Journeys between other cities on the route are also important.
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