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Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

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Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#21

Post by flak48 »

drieddust wrote: post #17
bpodgursky wrote: post #3

Seriously Mozilla? The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector. It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas. It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontific…

> In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation And how having bio-metric ID solves problem of stolen subsidies? Every time a subsidy is stolen, aaddhar card will shoot an arrow into corrupt bureaucrats. Our poor does not have access to Education and Law so they don't really…

Yep. PIN enabled smartcards for cash transfers/rural employement schemes were already proven to be useless when officials simply forced villagers to give up their PIN and thus give up part of their entitled income if they wanted to see any of their own money. Another ID, biometric or not, is not going to solve the problems of the poor

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#22

Post by schoen »

aub3bhat wrote: post #6

This is ridiculous fearmongering at a scale unseen before, given the enormous amount of corruption in Indian public distribution schemes, Aadhar has potential to be revolutionary in not only reducing corruption but also in providing poor people in India with assistance that they currently lack. Its easy to be a rich and employed in SF and pontificate about how other countries should run their government. Mozilla is e…

> Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.

I find the "no right to criticize" theory confusing.

I understand if your point is that one might be hypocritical in endorsing one government's biometric collection but not another. But I (a non-Indian) have criticized both US-VISIT and Aadhar. I don't want the U.S. government to have a database of visitors' (or citizens') biometric data, nor do I want the Indian government to have a database of citizens' (or visitors') biometric data. There need not be any hypocrisy or logical contradiction in that.

Edit: it looks from elsewhere in the thread like your point is that Indians in the U.S., in particular, must have acquiesced in giving their biometric data to the US-VISIT program (otherwise they would not have been admitted). I think there is some force to that argument, but it also seems to suggest that people who accept any government's preconditions for doing anything that they did not absolutely have to do are then giving up their right to criticize the government for imposing that requirement. For example, some people in the U.S. have criticized local government for requiring a government cosmetology license in order to practice eyebrow threading. I assume that some of those critics have nonetheless signed up for such licenses. Did they completely surrender their right to criticize that requirement when they did so?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#23

Post by flak48 »

aub3bhat wrote: post #8
gkcgautam wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aadhar isn't really solving these problems, but in fact is compromising on the privacy of the citizens of India. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/

All those myths are strawman arguments.

Why is Aadhar being made compulsory for rail/air travel or for getting cellular connections? What problem is biometrics in these areas going to solve?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#24

Post by aub3bhat »

flak48 wrote: post #18
bpodgursky wrote: post #3

Seriously Mozilla? The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector. It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas. It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontific…

>The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Before the Aadhar, when the Govt. started distributing PIN enabled smartcards to villagers (for food/cash transfers/employment), corrupt officials just started forcing villagers to give up their PIN and give up part of their balance if they wanted to see their food/cash/jobs. A si…

Unlike SSN number which lack associated biometric data, Aadhaar numbers lack utility without biometrics. A bunch of people read about SSN numbers "leaking" assume disclosure of Aadhar number is equally severe. Which is NOT AT ALL the case.

>> for air travel, rail travel,

Security

>> getting a cellular connection

Security

>> appearing for high school/university board exams

Prevent cheating

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#25

Post by schoen »

aub3bhat wrote: post #24
flak48 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Before the Aadhar, when the Govt. started distributing PIN enabled smartcards to villagers (for food/cash transfers/employment), corrupt officials just started forcing villagers to give up their PIN and give up part of their balance if they wanted to see their food/cash/jobs. A si…

Unlike SSN number which lack associated biometric data, Aadhaar numbers lack utility without biometrics. A bunch of people read about SSN numbers "leaking" assume disclosure of Aadhar number is equally severe. Which is NOT AT ALL the case. >> for air travel, rail travel, Security >> getting a cellular connection Security >> appearing for high school/university board exams Prevent cheating

I might be projecting my views onto other HN readers' here, but I don't know that you can garner that much support with this audience for the idea that people shouldn't be able to buy cell service anonymously.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#26

Post by adityab »

mundanevoice wrote: post #20

All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things. Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets securit…

I would have been fine with Aadhar if

- They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication

- There would not be an API for commercial services

I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#27

Post by 2pointsomone »

The entire article's argument of breach of privacy hinges on the claim that "the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish". Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement?

On the whole, pretty disappointed in this article from Mozilla.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#28

Post by realonedev »

I belong to the third world of the third world.

State called Uttar Pradesh.

If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India.

Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar :

My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents.

Which means,

No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe.

Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore.

This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised.

The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment.

Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years.

2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution

Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe ) because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years.

Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014.

Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then.

All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people.

Coincidence?

Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ?

Coincidence?

Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#29

Post by devnonymous »

Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself.

  > The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need
  > them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem).

  > Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification
  > necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
There already are a pletora of identification methods in India, including the PAN, ration card, BPL Card, Voter ID etc. In the end the problems that keep it from being 'unique' are in the implementation at the grass roots. How is Aadhaar going to change this ? There already are a lot of reports of duplication of Aadhaar.

  > It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
Reliable ? Oh really ? According to the goverment's own addmission :

http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadh...

  > It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping
  > programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple
  > hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because
  > their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this
  > conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems,
  > and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral
  > litmus tests.
Firstly, the Indian goverment is not even interested in debating or engaing people who have a different viewpoint than them, including the Superme Court of India. So, tell me again, which is this India you speak about that is allegedly soloving its problems ? I feel like Indians like me are lesser Indians than thos that toe the Goverment line.

I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about India:

Except from the book "Restart"[1]

  > Then the denial, the one form of intellectual argument we have mastered.
  > India has no problem; if it has a problem, it is nobody else’s business;
  > everybody else also has this problem; everybody else has other problems, why
  > don’t you talk about those instead; why are you saying this is a problem, it is
  > a part of our 5000-year- old culture; we knew the answers to all problems in
  > the Vedic era; even if we have this problem, it is not our fault; even if we
  > have this problem, we cannot accept any of the solutions that have been shown
  > to work elsewhere; even if we have this problem, it is much better than it was;
  > perhaps we have this problem, but it is none of your business.
...and this book is not even about sociology or politics, it is about economics.

http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8...

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#30

Post by realonedev »

adityab wrote: post #26
mundanevoice wrote: post #20

All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things. Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets securit…

I would have been fine with Aadhar if - They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication - There would not be an API for commercial services I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.

Where exactly is data leaked ?

All the news you hear about Aadhar privacy are fake .

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