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New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

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Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, It's officially a US firm with a NZ subsidiary. But any project like this is a multinational effort - while all the engineering, design, manufacture, operations, etc. are in NZ there is nowhere near enough space expertise located here so the team itself is very multinational.

>while all the engineering, design, manufacture, operations, etc. are in NZ I'm not sure how Rocket Lab splits design/manufacturing but they just moved into an pretty sizable facility in Hungtington Beach, CA a few months ago and I know for a fact that they have engineers and technicians on staff there. In any case it's great to see them progressing.

Turns out I was mistaken. If you look at their careers website (https://rocketlabusa.com/careers/positions/) it seems as though the engines are being designed and/or built in California and the rocket and software is being done in NZ.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#22
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One fairly interesting note there is that the electric engine that propels the rocket runs at 95% efficiency, in contrast to the 50% efficiency of the standard gas engines of the larger rocket. Is anyone familiar with A) why this is, and B) why the larger companies aren't investigating the use of these electric engines more? Is it too costly/difficult to do at a larger scale?

It's only the turbopump that is electric. The efficiency of the turbopump is counteracted by the need to bring batteries along. As I understand it, the electric turbopump makes the plumbing simpler, but it doesn't scale to large engines.

When they first announced the design I know a lot of people in the industry were skeptical that it would work at all.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#23
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One fairly interesting note there is that the electric engine that propels the rocket runs at 95% efficiency, in contrast to the 50% efficiency of the standard gas engines of the larger rocket. Is anyone familiar with A) why this is, and B) why the larger companies aren't investigating the use of these electric engines more? Is it too costly/difficult to do at a larger scale?

It's only the turbopump that is electric. The efficiency of the turbopump is counteracted by the need to bring batteries along. As I understand it, the electric turbopump makes the plumbing simpler, but it doesn't scale to large engines.

This is correct, the power density of electric motors (and the batteries to power them) is still very far short of what you can get from a well-designed turbine-based pump (that is, a turbopump), but there's so much ancillary plumbing and and stuff for a turbopump (like the precombustion chamber that has to generate some hot gas to drive the turbine), that doesn't scale down all that well to the small scale of the engines on the Electron, that the power density advantages of a turbopump tend to asymptotically tail off. Also, they require a lot of expertise to design, compared to almost any other kind of pump. There are turbopumps and turbopumps, though, and here I will paste in an HN comment of mine from a number of years ago:

""" There are three kinds of rocket engine cycle (well, there are maybe more but these are the three that have been flown historically). The Expander Cycle, the Staged Combustion Cycle, and the Gas Generator cycle. I'll mention the last two.

Merlin, as the article mentions, is an example of a Gas Generator cycle. In this cycle, you take off a little bit of fuel and oxidiser to burn outside the main combustion chamber, to generate some hot energetic gases that you can exhaust over a turbine. This spins the turbine up, which is connected to a shaft with a compressor on the other end. The compressor increases the pressure of the propellents so that they can be injected into the main combustion chamber. This assembly (turbine, shaft, compressor) is called the turbopump. It's necessary because the engines require very high flow rates to get the thrust they need, and that has to be at a high pressure - higher than the pressure of the combusting gases inside the combustion chamber, else you wouldn't be able to inject it!

Back to the bleed-off to drive the turbine. You usually don't want a perfect stoichiometric mix of fuel and oxidiser for this, or even close, because it generates extraordinary hot gases that no turbine would last long in (The turbines are spinning at many tens of thousands of RPM usually so would be subject to much higher forces than the actively cooled walls of the main combustion chamber). For this reason you usually have a large imbalance of one propellent to the other to keep the temperature down. Usually you run with excess fuel, or 'fuel-rich', as the opposite - oxidiser rich - means you have hot oxidising gases which are harder on the metallurgy. I do know of some russian exceptions to this, though, where fuel rich would have left sooty deposits in the plumbing (The materials science employed in the turbines was apparently so witchcraft that when the US got intelligence of oxidiser-rich turbine precombustors, they thought is was deliberate counterintelligence from the russians to get them to waste billions researching the impossible). The gas generator cycle, as the article mentions, dumps this turbine exhaust overboard separately. The problem with this is that there's a load of uncombusted fuel in this exhaust, which you're just wasting, and this hits your rocket performance - the Specific Impulse ( I_{sp} ), as you're not getting as much bang out of a given mass of fuel as you could.

The answer to this is the Staged Combustion Cycle, where you also inject the exhaust of the turbine into the combustion chamber to finish off combustion. The performance of these engines is higher but the thermodynamic balance to design a working system is a greater challenge, and some of the engineering is a bit harder too. Staged Combustion engines are mostly russian, although the Space Shuttle Main Engines are a US-design example of Staged combustion. """

Staged combustion engines are extremely efficient and on a big engine no electric pump system will even touch them, unless there is some materials-science breakthrough that will allow us one or two orders of magnitude improvement in flex density in electromagnetic materials. Electric pumps will probably remain in their niche for small engines and satellites.

I do think that small turbopumps are worth further research, although I don't know if the market needs higher performance small engines over more cheaper-to-produce small engines, but certainly there was fascinating work done in the uk in the 70s with tiny turbopumps (about the size of a coke can) that ran at hundreds of thousands of rpm, with a power of megawatts, and compressors very cleverly shaped to run sustainably far beyond the cavitation point of the fluids, which is usually the point at which you can't pump anymore, in traditional pump design literature. In combination with an expander cycle you could probably produce some extremely high performance, simple, small rocket engines. Maybe.

We live in exciting times.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done space projects with US companies and so am fully marinated in ITAR processes. In answer to your question: No, you can get around ITAR by just being careful about what information is imported and exported to and from the US. If there was a US engineering office and an NZ engineering office and all the engineering effort was evenly distributed among the two, it would be a nightmare as you'd be 'exporting US t…

Are all the engineers Non American citizens then? Wouldn't trying to hire American citizens also be a nightmare with ITAR?

I would assume most of their employees in NZ hold NZ citizenship although I'm unsure exactly how NZ handles ITAR.

They have engineers/technicians based in the US as well and I would assume most of those are US Persons (US Citizens or Permanent Residents). In the US you can get ITAR exemptions for non-US Persons but from my understanding it's a more difficult and much more expensive process so it is only done to recruit very high level talent.

I'm at SpaceX, which is a much larger company than Rocket Lab, and I can probably count on two hands the number of non-US Persons working here.

I'm fairly certain that Peter Beck, Rocket Lab's founder and CEO, who is a Kiwi, lives in Socal now.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#25
post #10
post #5

More detailed article here: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/05/rocket-labs-electron... Note that the rocket failed to reach orbit as intended.

One fairly interesting note there is that the electric engine that propels the rocket runs at 95% efficiency, in contrast to the 50% efficiency of the standard gas engines of the larger rocket. Is anyone familiar with A) why this is, and B) why the larger companies aren't investigating the use of these electric engines more? Is it too costly/difficult to do at a larger scale?

Efficiency alone is not sufficient to be an advantage - energy density and reliability are other factors. If a 50-lb battery at 95% efficiency produces the same energy as 40 lbs of fuel at 50% efficiency, the battery is at a disadvantage.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#27
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One fairly interesting note there is that the electric engine that propels the rocket runs at 95% efficiency, in contrast to the 50% efficiency of the standard gas engines of the larger rocket. Is anyone familiar with A) why this is, and B) why the larger companies aren't investigating the use of these electric engines more? Is it too costly/difficult to do at a larger scale?

It's only the turbopump that is electric. The efficiency of the turbopump is counteracted by the need to bring batteries along. As I understand it, the electric turbopump makes the plumbing simpler, but it doesn't scale to large engines.

I remember reading about a plan to use an actual V12 vehicle engine to power turbopumps at one point - supposedly simpler and more reliable than trying to drive it from another turbine. Can't find it on the internet now.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#28

As satellites are getting smaller, this may be a very efficient launch vehicle. Designed for small payload 150 - 220 kg for $4.9 million per launch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_(rocket) Frequent launches, so you can launch CubeSats as main payload, without waiting for one of the big launch which has some extra space: http://spaceflight101.com/2016-space-launch-statistics/

the problem is you can get anywhere between 10 and 20 metric tons depending on the exact LEO/SSO for a list price of $62M on a falcon 9; what SpaceX doesn't have is room in the manifest.

Re: New Zealand space launch is first from a private site

#30
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only the turbopump that is electric. The efficiency of the turbopump is counteracted by the need to bring batteries along. As I understand it, the electric turbopump makes the plumbing simpler, but it doesn't scale to large engines.

This is correct, the power density of electric motors (and the batteries to power them) is still very far short of what you can get from a well-designed turbine-based pump (that is, a turbopump), but there's so much ancillary plumbing and and stuff for a turbopump (like the precombustion chamber that has to generate some hot gas to drive the turbine), that doesn't scale down all that well to the small scale of the en…

The F1 engine [1] (Saturn V, first stage) used another interesting way to improve efficiency with a gas generator cycle: using the turbopump exhaust gas as a cooling film in the engine nozzle. The fuel-rich exhaust was relatively cool compared to the flame generated by the rocket engine itself, and thus protected the nozzle from the most intense heat.

This is why, close up, the flame looks almost black close to the nozzle [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_F-1

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/F-1_Engi...

Edit: Hopefully clarified a little, and changed the link in [2] (from https://youtu.be/DKtVpvzUF1Y?t=125).

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