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History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

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Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#21

Post by submeta »

Interesting to see the Symbolics keyboard. As an Emacs user I had reprogrammed my ThinkPad keyboard (Windows) so that

Alt -> Control

Windows-key and Menu Key -> Alt

Control keys -> Windows key

So without having ever seen a Symbolics keyboard and without knowing the history behind emacs keyboard layout I remapped my keyboard so that I had very quick access to Control and Alt (= Meta) keys.

On my Macbook it's not that easy. I could remap the Command key to become a Control key, but many Mac shortcuts heavily rely on the Command key. So that's no option.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#22

Post by atemerev »

brudgers wrote: post #18
atemerev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, C-n is just _perfect_ to reach. Just thinking of it makes my arm twitch and glow with pain. I am starting to suspect that Emacs original keybinding designer (Richard?) is actually an octopus.

He had a keyboard with important keys on both sides of the spacebar because the assumption was that a user would interact with the computer in sophisticated ways such as or similar to programming. Most current keyboards are designed for cost saving or consumption or just by copying mediocre designs that are common.

I write software for 20 years, I use Linux and OS X as my primary development desktop OS, I have used Slackware Linux 1.0 back in 1995, I am a touch typist — but I just can't stay using Vim or Emacs, unless forced to (such as when I have to quickly edit something on a remote machine).

Yes, I might be a special snowflake — most developers don't have problems with vim or Emacs, expect for occasional flame wars between the two. But I do, even as I tried to make the switch like 20 or more times.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#23

Post by atemerev »

vlunkr wrote: post #20
atemerev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac default keymap looks intuitive enough for me. Opt+arrows for skipping words, Cmd+arrows for sentences. Beats absolutely arbitrary Ctrl-A/Ctrl-E and ^/$ definitively. (I am a proficient touch typist, but I can't adapt to hjkl in lieu of arrow keys — not to mention the context shifting overhead for two vim modes).

Is holding down one or more modifiers and pressing a key not a similar context switch? Typing 'v' enters a 'v' character, cmd/ctrl-v pastes from the clipboard. There's no logical connection between the two except that you've probably had that one memorized for decades. The difference in vim is that you don't use modifiers when you're in normal mode (usually). Side note: TWO vim modes? I guess you're never had the ple…

Two primary modes, you pedantic you.

Control keys are relegated to the edges of the keyboard and easily remembered and distinguished by touch, as there are only few of them. Cmd+X, Cmd+C and Cmd+V is much more convenient, memorizable and logical (X and V visually look like editing marks on paper, for cutting and inserting respectfully; C is for Copy), than... how do you copy-paste again in vim? v/y? I see no logic there. Yes, I remember that v is for "visual selection", and y is for "yank", whatever it is... but it is way less logical.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#24

Post by WorldMaker »

atemerev wrote: post #10
AlexandrB wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Especially given how none of those keyboards look THAT different than what we use today. In particular, Vim's use of the home row for movement is objectively better than moving your hand off the home row and using the arrow keys (which you can do if you wish as well). I'm sure if someone was creating Vim today, they might choose WASD instead since many are familiar with the use…

Key distinction: they didn't have arrow keys block. You can pry my arrow keys from my cold dead hands!

But you have to relocate your hand from the home row to use arrow keys. Arrow keys are great and all, but the vi/vim benefit to home row arrows is a lot less travel for your (usually) right hand, which can be a great ergonomic win.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#25

Post by chongli »

LanceH wrote: post #19
AlexandrB wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Especially given how none of those keyboards look THAT different than what we use today. In particular, Vim's use of the home row for movement is objectively better than moving your hand off the home row and using the arrow keys (which you can do if you wish as well). I'm sure if someone was creating Vim today, they might choose WASD instead since many are familiar with the use…

I would prefer they pick jkl; instead of hjkl. I'm not a fan of shifting my right hand left and even less enthused about forcing my index finger into double duty on jh.

As a long time vi and vim user, I disagree. Learning the keys tends to happen in stages (with arrow keys being stage 1) and reliance on hjkl is not the final stage. When you truly master vi/vim you barely use hjkl at all. Instead, you use fFtT/?nN;, text objects, addresses, and marks. These tools allow you to move to places in text and make changes at a glance without dealing with all the characters or lines in between.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#26

Post by klibertp »

submeta wrote: post #21

Interesting to see the Symbolics keyboard. As an Emacs user I had reprogrammed my ThinkPad keyboard (Windows) so that Alt -> Control Windows-key and Menu Key -> Alt Control keys -> Windows key So without having ever seen a Symbolics keyboard and without knowing the history behind emacs keyboard layout I remapped my keyboard so that I had very quick access to Control and Alt (= Meta) keys. On my Macbook it's not that…

I used "Keyboard Maestro" for this. I tried out some other tools, but they mostly didn't work or were too bothersome to configure. It's definitely worth the cost, as it made a Mac usable to me, although my keymap is quite different from yours, which is kind of a point with this kind of software :)

I was using Linux and StumpWM (a Common Lisp/Emacs-based WM, and Enlightenment before that) for a couple of years, so I thought that full support for personal keymaps is a given in any serious computing environment. I was pretty shocked to learn that on Mac OS you can do very little keybinding, if exchanging a few keys positions can be even called that. Fortunately, it looks like I'm going back to Linux soon.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#27

Post by arca_vorago »

atemerev wrote: post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

I think the main difference between the vi(m)/emacs users and others is that they actually use the keyboard as their general home more. Not just programmers, but sysadmins, office workers, etc, spend far too much time in habit-formed inefficiencies of input.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#28

Post by [deleted] »

submeta wrote: post #21

Interesting to see the Symbolics keyboard. As an Emacs user I had reprogrammed my ThinkPad keyboard (Windows) so that Alt -> Control Windows-key and Menu Key -> Alt Control keys -> Windows key So without having ever seen a Symbolics keyboard and without knowing the history behind emacs keyboard layout I remapped my keyboard so that I had very quick access to Control and Alt (= Meta) keys. On my Macbook it's not that…

[deleted]

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#29

Post by atilaneves »

jmfurlott wrote: post #13
epistasis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having caps lock where it is on current keyboards is in no way a superior design. It's a useless key in a prime location! Give me those "inferior" keyboards any day.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

I keep seeing this advice and don't understand it. Do most people not touch type? What am I supposed to do about right ctrl?
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