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Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

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Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#21

Post by fb03 »

detaro wrote: post #18
ygra wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different approach. WSL is more like CoLinux back in the day, in that Windows and Linux kernels run alongside each other. Even a bit better integrated because processes across both worlds can run each other, and see and talk to each other. No one is taking away your VM, don't worry.

WSL doesn't run a Linux kernel – a Windows Subsystem just provides a different API to the underlying Windows kernel, in this case the API Linux applications expect. So arguably, it's even further from a VM than CoLinux.

Do you know if they already have proper X support? Or is it just a matter of compiling X.org and running it yourself?

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#22

Post by pmilot »

fb03 wrote: post #17
ygra wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different approach. WSL is more like CoLinux back in the day, in that Windows and Linux kernels run alongside each other. Even a bit better integrated because processes across both worlds can run each other, and see and talk to each other. No one is taking away your VM, don't worry.

Ah, nice, thanks for the explanation! I do remember CoLinux. This should provide way better latency than my VM tho, right?

Theoretically, yes, but WSL is still beta and performance (especially filesystem I/O) is mediocre at best. They'll get there eventually!

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#23

Post by adrianN »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #19
loudmax wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, we could be entering a phase where an open source developer might say "Why bother porting to Windows? Just target Arch/Ubuntu/SUSE."

tl/dr: Simply put, the cross platform distribution problem is solved (in way more ways than one), but I think the combination electron/nw.js + cross-platform-from-the-get-go languages will win, instead of other options like QT. I think it might be a waste of time to target a distribution and hope it gets ported reasonably to Windows, clouding your codebase in the process. While possibly a highly unpopular opinion, th…

If I wanted bloated UIs that look the same on every platform but integrate poorly with every platform I'd use Java Swing.

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#24

Post by fb03 »

pmilot wrote: post #22
fb03 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, nice, thanks for the explanation! I do remember CoLinux. This should provide way better latency than my VM tho, right?

Theoretically, yes, but WSL is still beta and performance (especially filesystem I/O) is mediocre at best. They'll get there eventually!

Nice, because right now altough I use a linux VM for dev work, I am still bummed by the latency and stuff. For tty based work it is there but any X.org workload is still laggy as fuck, which kinda bothers me a little while coding (I'm using Xubuntu with all the VirtualBox additions on).

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#25

Post by Shorel »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #4

While I can see this is an excellent strategy for the Windows platform, and will probably make developers on Windows more productive, I for one will never give up natively installed linux distributions for development. It may be childish, but I resent Windows for every anti-privacy, anti-competitive move they make, despite how much it is within their rights and fitting with their corporate goals. Trying to put linux…

I don't resent Windows, in fact I am doing updates now in the Windows OS.

But just for performance and workload capacity, I can't give up Ubuntu, when installed in the very same hardware.

There's something in Windows that just removes control from the user, and I say this in a very technical way.

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#26

Post by hardwaresofton »

adrianN wrote: post #23
hardwaresofton wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl/dr: Simply put, the cross platform distribution problem is solved (in way more ways than one), but I think the combination electron/nw.js + cross-platform-from-the-get-go languages will win, instead of other options like QT. I think it might be a waste of time to target a distribution and hope it gets ported reasonably to Windows, clouding your codebase in the process. While possibly a highly unpopular opinion, th…

If I wanted bloated UIs that look the same on every platform but integrate poorly with every platform I'd use Java Swing.

Oh yes, I totally forgot, that option has been around forever as well (I only mentioned QT) -- I've only written one non-trivial app in it and it wasn't the worst experience actually (but then again, it was a greenfield project, albeit close to a decade ago now)

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#27

Post by douche »

The installation process for the WSL still blows - and I say that as somebody who really likes this feature.

I tried doing it today on my laptop:

1.) Open up the Programs and Features control panel.

2.) Go to Turn Windows Features on or off

3.) Select the Windows Subsystem for Linux option and hit OK. Installs, prompts for reboot.

4.) Try to launch C:\Windows\System32\bash.exe. Console window flashes momentarily and disappears.

5.) Open CMD window and run bash.exe. See a message that says "In order to use this feature you must have Developer Mode enabled."

6.) Faff around trying to find where the developer mode switch is hidden, in the newer Settings app. Enable that. Wait five-ten minutes as it does... things. Reboot again.

7.) Try to run bash again, and again console window flashes in and out of existence in a millisecond. Run it again from a CMD window. Type "y" to accept license terms. More things download from the Windows Store(?). Create a linux account.

8.) Finally have bash working on Windows, albeit in the terrible, terrible default console shell. Go look up how to setup ConEmu...

This really should be streamlined a little bit, right?

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#28

Post by toyg »

loudmax wrote: post #10
hardwaresofton wrote: post #4

While I can see this is an excellent strategy for the Windows platform, and will probably make developers on Windows more productive, I for one will never give up natively installed linux distributions for development. It may be childish, but I resent Windows for every anti-privacy, anti-competitive move they make, despite how much it is within their rights and fitting with their corporate goals. Trying to put linux…

On the other hand, we could be entering a phase where an open source developer might say "Why bother porting to Windows? Just target Arch/Ubuntu/SUSE."

I think there is a distinction to make between developers of applications deployed on servers and deployed on desktops. I know the latter category is a dying breed, but still.

With WSL, developers targeting servers do have less of an incentive to port to Windows; but I'd argue that was the trend already, which is why MS is finally coming around.

On the other hand, developers targeting desktops now have more of an incentive to target Windows. A lot of early adopters and peers for these people are power users and other developers, who run Linux or Mac on their desktops as much as (if not more than) Windows. If more of these people move back to Windows because of WSL, desktop developers will have to consider Windows a priority again.

While a lot of the focus of "New MS" is on selling and promoting their cloud services, they are also interested in stemming the bleed on desktop. WSL helps a lot in that regard, IMHO; and as a side effect, it keeps developers on Windows: familiarity is always useful when it comes to peddle other Windows-based solutions. Win-win (for MS).

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#29

Post by hardwaresofton »

Shorel wrote: post #25
hardwaresofton wrote: post #4

While I can see this is an excellent strategy for the Windows platform, and will probably make developers on Windows more productive, I for one will never give up natively installed linux distributions for development. It may be childish, but I resent Windows for every anti-privacy, anti-competitive move they make, despite how much it is within their rights and fitting with their corporate goals. Trying to put linux…

I don't resent Windows, in fact I am doing updates now in the Windows OS. But just for performance and workload capacity, I can't give up Ubuntu, when installed in the very same hardware. There's something in Windows that just removes control from the user, and I say this in a very technical way.

Absolutely agreed -- I saw a different HN thread about running Windows 10 on ARM and:

- thought to myself "why on earth would anyone want that"

- looked at the comments, noted people who were working with legacy software that turned out to be dependent on windows, decided to keep my disparaging commentary to myself

- felt sympathy with smidgen of condescension (I'm of the opinion that someone should just rewrite those old tools, but being a relatively young developer, I'm naive like that)

Re: Ubuntu, SUSE Linux, and Fedora Are All Coming to the Windows Store

#30

Post by douche »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #26
adrianN wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted bloated UIs that look the same on every platform but integrate poorly with every platform I'd use Java Swing.

Oh yes, I totally forgot, that option has been around forever as well (I only mentioned QT) -- I've only written one non-trivial app in it and it wasn't the worst experience actually (but then again, it was a greenfield project, albeit close to a decade ago now)

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