Live data from Hacker News

When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

nytimes.com

21–30 of 79 posts

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#21

The title reminds me of a species we're all familiar with where the females are adopting increasingly high standards for mates based in obsolete evolutionary preferences which have no applicability to fitness in the current environment, and where the skills relevant to survival in the current environment are ironically often seen as unattractive by the females, and males who cultivate these skills often don't have th…

What obsolete traits are you talking about?

Mainly muscle mass and height.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#22
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're describing this viewpoint Yes. > evolution selects at multiple levels That's just another way of saying that evolution selects for reproductive fitness with respect to a particular environment. If a gene is part of an organism, then the other genes in that organism are part of that gene's environment. The aggregation of genes into organisms is itself an evolutionary adaptation (as is the aggregation of organ…

I think you're trying very hard to fit the real world into a hypothesis that doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense to me. What about it doesn't make sense to you?

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#23
Oh, boo! Boo to this thing! It is an affront to my sensibilities, and would seek to tell me I am wrong to find attraction where I expect it to be!

Boo, that anyone would tell me my love is wrong! Boo, to the very idea that my love at first sight is unfit to survive the slings and arrows of this cruel universe!

Boo, to the slightest belief that my handsome and wonderful instincts would lead me astray!

Boo, to this! Boo, I say!

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#24
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're describing this viewpoint Yes. > evolution selects at multiple levels That's just another way of saying that evolution selects for reproductive fitness with respect to a particular environment. If a gene is part of an organism, then the other genes in that organism are part of that gene's environment. The aggregation of genes into organisms is itself an evolutionary adaptation (as is the aggregation of organ…

I think you're trying very hard to fit the real world into a hypothesis that doesn't make any sense.

I would encourage you to read up on what the gene-centered view actually states.

> that doesn't make any sense

If you look at the criticism leveled against this theory you will find that many of them have been addressed by the proponents of the theory, in many cases very successfully. Many things can be said about this theory but your claim strikes me as highly unqualified.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainly muscle mass and height.

Somehow I see plenty of short guys with little atleticism dating girls.

I can't say I ever do. This comes from living on a college campus for years and leaving without having been able to get a single date.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I see plenty of short guys with little atleticism dating girls.

I can't say I ever do. This comes from living on a college campus for years and leaving without having been able to get a single date.

I once thought this was my problem. Turns out it had nothing to do with anything, and I was just an unlikable weirdo.

Sorry if that doesn't help. But blaming women for not liking you doesn't help either.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I ever do. This comes from living on a college campus for years and leaving without having been able to get a single date.

I once thought this was my problem. Turns out it had nothing to do with anything, and I was just an unlikable weirdo. Sorry if that doesn't help. But blaming women for not liking you doesn't help either.

Being an "unlikable weirdo" wouldn't explain getting no responses on the standard dating sites/apps everyone on campus uses, when the demographics of the college are around 65% female. Part of the problem is that way back in the day, when the tribes were small, it was in the woman's best interest to mate with only the perceived fittest mates around, and her mental baseline of "average" would be set by the local tribe members. Now that we have the media and such showing super-fit males as the standard, that becomes the baseline of acceptable, so it seems like you're written off right away if you're below that. Some time ago before we were so inundated with such standards in the media, the mental baseline would be more realistic, and more males in the local town/area would have a chance. The male's evolutionary sexual strategy has always been to impregnate as many mates as possible, so the change in the media hasn't really had an effect on that end. This ties into my observation, which I've seen echoed on a lot of other forums online, that even the far less conventionally attractive women are increasingly refusing to settle for any less than a male they'd rate at "8/10". There's also a study by OKCupid saying something similar.

Re: When sexual selection can lead to a decline in the capacity for survival

#30
post #4
post #2

> But the evolutionary mechanism behind this novelty is not adaptation by natural selection, in which only those who survive pass on their genes, allowing the species to become better adapted to its environment over time. Rather, it is sexual selection by mate choice, in which individuals pass on their genes only if they’re chosen as mates. TFA has a weird definition for natural selection. Evolution has no preference…

Agreed. This is more akin to evolution being stuck in a suboptimal (and perhaps a dead-end) local minima - but it is still natural selection as more pleasing features = survival on an individual scale.

Complex systems can spend a long time following gradient descent without reaching the local optimal. For all we know, it's features have other advantages, like scaring off predators.

Traits need to be considered with the ones they compete against. It's impossible to judge the bird in isolation.

Post reply on HN