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Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

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21–30 of 222 posts

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#21
post #7

It's weird to consider "parasitic" loss a problem. You just factor that into the total output. If it's high enough you're good.

The article says that you still need that power when the reactor is shutdown or in maintenance.

You'd need to consider gain, loss and on/off cycle.

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#22
post #13

When a reporter calls their credibility into question in the second sentence, there's a problem. "they would produce vast amounts of energy with little radioactive waste, forming little or no plutonium byproducts that could be used for nuclear weapons." Fusion products are helium, neutrons, and neutrinos. Stars eventually fuse products up to iron. To generate plutonium requires a supernova...

The 'reporter' "was a principal research physicist at the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab until 1999. For 25 years he worked in areas of plasma physics and neutron production related to fusion energy research and development. He holds a PhD in astrophysical sciences from Princeton University."

Do you think it's perhaps possible that the author knows what he's talking about? If you'd continued reading after that second sentence you might have come across:

> In fact, these neutron streams lead directly to four regrettable problems with nuclear energy: radiation damage to structures; radioactive waste; the need for biological shielding; and the potential for the production of weapons-grade plutonium 239—thus adding to the threat of nuclear weapons proliferation, not lessening it, as fusion proponents would have it.

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#23
Much of the (valid) criticism in this article relates to the deuterium-tritium fuel cycle. This is the easiest reaction to accomplish on Earth, so most experimental reactors are designed with this fuel in mind, and we're certainly having a hard enough time making even this work.

However, I've always considered D-T fusion an intermediate step on the path to aneutronic fusion, such as Helium-3 or proton-Boron reactions. These avoid most of the radiation issues, as well as the tritium-breeding problem (although Helium-3 sourcing presents its own challenge). Since the fusion products are electrically charged the reactor could possibly also generate electricity directly, without a steam turbine and the associated energy loss. Unfortunately, it requires temperatures that are an order of magnitude higher than D-T (well beyond a billion degrees Kelvin), so we'll need to learn to walk before we can run.

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#25
post #7

It's weird to consider "parasitic" loss a problem. You just factor that into the total output. If it's high enough you're good.

Absolutely. Net output per $ of opex (+ amortization of capex, decommission costs, etc.) is the only relevant metric. Parasitic power loss is categorically not an issue.

This is a mistake that engineers frequently make when they are too narrowly focused. You see it all the time in rocket engineering. The rocket equation dictates that performance drops off rapidly as the mass of the vehicle becomes heavier, or the efficiency of the engines worsens. So rocket engineers are obsessed with saving weight and increasing engine performance.

However: performance, in absolute terms, doesn't actually matter. What matters is that you get your stuff in orbit, whether that's done efficiently or not.

Up to a point, you of course do need to worry about vehicle weight and engine performance -- with too much of the former or too little of the latter, you won't be able to launch any payload. This is analogous to the "break-even point" for fusion power.

Beyond that point, however, there's a tradeoff to make: if you need to launch a larger payload, you can either improve the weight or the engines -- or you can just throw more propellant at the problem.

Many engineers scoff at the latter approach, because it is utterly inelegant (and doesn't require as many engineers to accomplish). But rocket propellant is cheap. Really cheap. A cost-driven analysis that compares improving efficiency vs. throwing more propellant at the problem will often favour the latter.

The reason SpaceX succeeded in reducing launch costs -- where NASA's engineers failed to do so for 50 years -- is because they were willing to do this analysis and go to market with a lower-performance rocket. They preferred to spend an extra $100k on kerosene than an extra $10M milling engine parts out of unobtainium. Having done so, they then iteratively figured out how to make a cheap rocket high-performance -- their rockets are now very high-performance -- which turns out to be much easier than figuring out how to make a high-performance rocket cheap.

Anyhow, this article gives me a strong whiff of that kind of engineer's bias, where the good is the enemy of the perfect.

[Edit: typos.]

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#26
There's nothing quite like trying to get fusion to work for a while to make you appreciate how awesome fission technology is.

If we applied even half the cleverness needed for fusion to making better fission technology, we'd probably be way better off.

...and then there's solar. Why even bother with producing the energy, just capture it with a very thin solid state device! Just need to automate the planting of solar panels in the desert, and we could produce all of our electricity from the Sun. Using just a fifth to a tenth of the land (and much crappier land that nothing much can grow on) that we use for /ethanol/ production alone.

(Yes, storage is tough, but is getting cheaper, and we can just plant more solar panels so there's enough power even during cloudy days... Although this is mostly a thought exercise. The best plan for deep decarbonization by far is to operate with a mix of clean power sources optimized for high capacity factor, including at least our current nuclear fleet... They help provide a reliable baseline which drastically reduces the amount of storage and over-installation required. That last 20% of power produced by nuclear is worth its weight in gold and should be protected at least until all fossil power production is ended.)

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#27

I'm interested in the approach being investigated at LPPFusion, on a shoestring budget no less. http://lppfusion.com/ LPPFusion is attempting to harness hydrogen-boron fusion, which doesn't produce neutrons, only gamma radiation and helium nuclei (alpha particles). Both the gamma radiation and the alpha particles can be directly converted into electricity. There are many potential benefits of this approach, but a pri…

There are a whole bunch of options for aneutronic fusion ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneutronic_fusion

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#28

There's nothing quite like trying to get fusion to work for a while to make you appreciate how awesome fission technology is. If we applied even half the cleverness needed for fusion to making better fission technology, we'd probably be way better off. ...and then there's solar. Why even bother with producing the energy, just capture it with a very thin solid state device! Just need to automate the planting of solar…

Re solar: not just deserts (there aren't many in the UK) - https://www.fastcompany.com/3053998/these-sky-high-balloons-...

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#29
post #7

It's weird to consider "parasitic" loss a problem. You just factor that into the total output. If it's high enough you're good.

Disclaimer: I know nearly nothing about this stuff.

Almost none of the problems listed there seem to be deal breakers. Most of them seem to be a matter of small improvements that probably aren't the primary focus of research right now.

For example I'd imagine researchers have a fairly steady supply of tritium, they don't need to focus fairly hard on recovering it all, just enough to save on costs since it's pretty expensive. Why bother trying to recover 100% of tritium for a reaction that you can't even get energy positive yet? Trying to make it more efficient when you can't even make it work seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

And that seems to be the case with the fuel, too (at least how described in the article). Once we get the process working with the easy fuels it seems that the next target for research would be using fuels that might be better but harder to work with.

>Corrosion in the heat exchange system, or a breach in the reactor vacuum ducts could result in the release of radioactive tritium into the atmosphere or local water resources. Tritium exchanges with hydrogen to produce tritiated water, which is biologically hazardous. > Most fission reactors contain trivial amounts of tritium (less than 1 gram) compared with the kilograms in putative fusion reactors. But the release of even tiny amounts of radioactive tritium from fission reactors into groundwater causes public consternation.

He seems to negate his own point by saying that the tritium output is less than a thousandth of what it is in fission. It might not be perfect but that sure sounds like an improvement to me. Even better once they start recovering larger amounts of it (he said himself that they need to recover at least 99% of it).

Also, from my (limited) knowledge of tritium it isn't that dangerous. It is in watches, weapon sights, emergency signs, and many other glow in the dark things. I've researched it before due to having several tritium containing products and it seems that in small amounts it simply vents into the atmosphere and becomes a non issue.

Anyway please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

Re: Fusion reactors: Not what they’re cracked up to be

#30
post #13

When a reporter calls their credibility into question in the second sentence, there's a problem. "they would produce vast amounts of energy with little radioactive waste, forming little or no plutonium byproducts that could be used for nuclear weapons." Fusion products are helium, neutrons, and neutrinos. Stars eventually fuse products up to iron. To generate plutonium requires a supernova...

To generate plutonium requires a supernova...

Or an energetic neutron source, which a fusion reactor provides.

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