Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies • Hacker News Board

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#21

Post by bengotow » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #8

The only point I could argue with is the choice of JavaScript, all the others seem inevitable. As a Thunderbird user I'm happy to know that I might be using it for another 20 years. Even JavaScript is not that bad. I not familiar with Electron: do those apps run from a directory with the source code or are a binary file? Running from source code would make it easy to hack with the code, which is good.

Yep! Electron essentially just launches a web app from a directory on disk in an included copy of Chromium, with NodeJS's JavaScript bindings as well as the usual ones. The web app has an index.html, CSS, all the standard stuff. It's usually packaged into a .asar file so things can be loaded faster, but it's great for hackability.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#22

Post by bengotow » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

5ilv3r wrote: post #19

bengotow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the web is evolving. If you're a sysadmin and you test everything in an ancient version of Firefox that doesn't display SSL errors, you're not getting an accurate picture of what the product's users will see. The latest browsers might entirely block people from visiting your site, display a huge warning, etc. and you wouldn't know. Maybe being a sysadmin requires getting the fixes, refreshes, rebranding as they…

No no no you missed what I am saying. I use horrible hardware appliances with built in md5 ssl certs for remote administration. I am not a web developer. I need to be able to access them to secure them and to work on hardware problems. This isn't even on the internet, this is on a local lan serving a small business. We're not going to buy new hardware because my browser updated, so I'm stuck having to boot up a mint…

Ahh I see! Sorry, I totally misread your message. Wow, that's a rough situation... If things get really bad, I think you could use a HTTPS proxy like Charles (https://www.charlesproxy.com/) to decrypt the traffic and re-encrypt it with a newer SSL cert before viewing it in Firefox. I'm not sure about Firefox, but you can run Chrome from the command line with `--allow-running-insecure-content --ignore-certificate-errors` and it'll load anything and everything. Maybe there's a similar mode for Firefox that will disable everything.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#23

Post by Certhas » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

5ilv3r wrote: post #13

Mozilla just doesn't get the message.... We don't want your features, fixes, refreshes, rebranding, or re-imagining. We want a browser that is fast, stable, secure, minimal, and that DOES NOT FIGHT US. Let me load my old SSL certs (a warning is fine). Let me keep my preferences (why does https:// disappear from my address bar every update, and my search bar keep switching back to case sensitive). Stop making your pro…

So Thunderbird is moving away from legacy technology that was built to make Mozilla/Firefox more than just a browser. They are doing this to be free to improve Firefox to make it more stable, fast, secure and minimal.

This leads to a completely independent Mozilla project, Thunderbird, that relied on this technology to get the axe.

That project thus is discussing taking the difficult technical step to start from scratch while keeping the user experience the same its been for 10 years.

This, in turn, leads to you criticising Mozilla for not focusing on making their browser fast, stable and secure. Because you are hitting some configuration/update/UI bugs that seem entirely unrelated to the core browsing experience. Thunderbird, BTW, has 25 million users. So even if you don't need it, some people do.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#24

Post by rxlim » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

tumblen wrote: post #4

rxlim wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Cambridge Dictionary "in the works" has the following meaning: in the process of being planned or done Thunderbird replacement is currently being planned, so I think it's correct.

I think it's that "in the works" seems to imply an agreement/commitment, but this appears to be a proposal.

This is a post[0] from one of the project leaders:

However, I think we all agree we want the Thunderbird replacement to be a desktop client (plus other platforms like mobile), and based on web technologies, most importantly written in JavaScript.

But the title has now been changed and that is fine with me.

[0]https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2017-April/00...

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#25

Post by bengotow » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

wink wrote: post #20

bengotow wrote: post #12

Hmm, I thought Mozilla had pulled financial support from Thunderbird? This would be an exciting new chapter for the product, but the article doesn't address whether it makes financial sense for Mozilla to invest this much in Thunderbird's future. For most of the last three years I've worked on Nylas Mail ( https://github.com/Nylas/Nylas-mail ), and it hit 2.0 yesterday with Mac/Win/Linux support. It's entirely open s…

Is the "open source" label still comically misleading? [0] I tried it out, didn't read the fine print, filed an issue, never looked at it again. Because "It keeps user data local and private." is kind of one of the main benefits. [0]: https://github.com/nylas/nylas-mail/issues/860

Ahh thanks I need to update that!

Originally Nylas Mail was OSS, but tied to the Nylas Cloud APIs (which did the actual mail processing.)

The cloud strategy was too expensive, and in version 2.0 the entire mail-sync system was moved into the client and open sourced. (https://github.com/nylas/nylas-mail/tree/master/packages/cli...). It's now much more like Thunderbird. There's a bit of cloud processing for snoozing / send later, etc., but it no longer syncs all your email through the cloud.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#26

Post by Certhas » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

cakeface wrote: post #11

Does anyone actually have any problems with Thunderbird? I feel like it is "done" software. It works, perfectly, for all my needs. It's fast. It has great UI. It lets me read and write email.

Working with big folders tends to be a bit error prone to me. I would like to synchronize my filters/settings across different devices. On MacOs it randomly hangs for tens of seconds and eats batteries for some people (me included).

So yeah, it's mostly done, but better virtual folder support, and a streamlined UI would both be hugely appreciated by me.

But, because it's mostly done, I also will just happily keep using it as it is now for the next three years, waiting for the rewrite.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#27

Post by sidlls » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

"JavaScript is the best choice."

(Citation Needed).

This proposal identifies serious legitimate concerns with Thunderbird development going forward, but the proposed solution looks more like a hammer seeking a nail than a thoughtful approach to addressing the concerns.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#28

Post by problems » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

cakeface wrote: post #11

Does anyone actually have any problems with Thunderbird? I feel like it is "done" software. It works, perfectly, for all my needs. It's fast. It has great UI. It lets me read and write email.

I feel the same way personally. I feel like I see tons of people complaining about it, but it's just what I want out of a mail client. The UI is a great, the GPG integration is great with enigmail, it's a very polished product.

Not only that, but making one based on web technologies that moves away from the native look and feel it currently has would truly be a loss in my opinion. I'd probably give Claws Mail and alpine another go, maybe even desktop outlook before I'd go to something Electron-esque. I already have enough shitty electron apps - I'm currently dealing with a really weird font rendering issue arising from Electron use in VS Code.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#29

Post by Kenji » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

I wish I could freeze the program Thunderbird in time to keep it precisely how it is right now for the next couple of decades. I literally want not change. I know, I know. It's a pipe dream, the surrounding environment changes, breaking the program as the OS and libraries evolve. But this constant resolving of perfectly solved problems annoys me.

Re: Proposal to start a new implementation of Thunderbird based on web technologies

#30

Post by mbell » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

5ilv3r wrote: post #19

bengotow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the web is evolving. If you're a sysadmin and you test everything in an ancient version of Firefox that doesn't display SSL errors, you're not getting an accurate picture of what the product's users will see. The latest browsers might entirely block people from visiting your site, display a huge warning, etc. and you wouldn't know. Maybe being a sysadmin requires getting the fixes, refreshes, rebranding as they…

No no no you missed what I am saying. I use horrible hardware appliances with built in md5 ssl certs for remote administration. I am not a web developer. I need to be able to access them to secure them and to work on hardware problems. This isn't even on the internet, this is on a local lan serving a small business. We're not going to buy new hardware because my browser updated, so I'm stuck having to boot up a mint…

> I need to be able to access them to secure them

If they are using md5 ssl certs, it's unlikely securing them is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a dozen or more security vulns in such outdated devices.