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A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

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Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#21

Post by wavefunction »

readams wrote: post #8

I think when people imagine these "garbage patches" they picture a floating garbage dump you could set a lawn chair on. The reality is that they are regions of slightly increased concentration of plastic. Here, the worst areas are between 100-500 grams of plastic per square kilometer. That is 5 empty water bottles in a square kilometer. This doesn't mean that having this debris is a good thing but it's important to g…

Why is trash ending up in the Arctic, that's my takeaway.

Half a kilo of plastic per square kilometer is a lot for water that shouldn't have any plastic in the first place. I guess it is all about perspective.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#22

Post by readams »

DanBC wrote: post #15
readams wrote: post #8

I think when people imagine these "garbage patches" they picture a floating garbage dump you could set a lawn chair on. The reality is that they are regions of slightly increased concentration of plastic. Here, the worst areas are between 100-500 grams of plastic per square kilometer. That is 5 empty water bottles in a square kilometer. This doesn't mean that having this debris is a good thing but it's important to g…

200,000 pieces per square kilometer in the North Atlantic garbage patch. 4 particles per cubic meter in the Great Pacific garbage patch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_garbage_patch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

These numbers refer to microscopic and otherwise extremely small particle size. You're still in "a couple of kg per square km" territory in the denser regions for these other (more famous) patches.

Again, this is not a good thing and has important negative ecological effects. This needs to be studied and mitigated. But we're still not walking on top of floating islands of garbage.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#23

Post by throwaway18917 »

emodendroket wrote: post #19
deelowe wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less greed and more simple population growth. These technologies were invented in the name of efficiency. We all have a bit of the burden to share here. For example, fishing line. What would happen if we banned this? I think there might be dire consequences for cultures that depend on seafood for sustenance.

Was it solely population growth that led oil concerns to hide their own research into greenhouse gases and also fund research to undermine efforts to restrict emissions?

No, but you're not allowed to criticize unfettered late-stage capitalism on Hacker News because MUH GROWTH.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#24

Post by to_bpr »

spraak wrote: post #4

We're continually creating our own demise. As much as technology has been intended to extend our life, it's more often just used to extend someone's wallet, and trash everything else.

It does extend our life - or at least does such a wonderful job of providing that illusion that we, as a species, will turn a blind eye to unfathomable levels of destruction to the environment, all other species and indeed many of our own species (once adequately separated) in the name of consuming these technologies or their output.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#25

Post by DanBC »

readams wrote: post #22
DanBC wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200,000 pieces per square kilometer in the North Atlantic garbage patch. 4 particles per cubic meter in the Great Pacific garbage patch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_garbage_patch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

These numbers refer to microscopic and otherwise extremely small particle size. You're still in "a couple of kg per square km" territory in the denser regions for these other (more famous) patches. Again, this is not a good thing and has important negative ecological effects. This needs to be studied and mitigated. But we're still not walking on top of floating islands of garbage.

Sure, I'm not trying to say they're big particles.

Most humans would have a hard time to know if they're in the garbage patches or not.

The term garbage patch is probably misleading. Soup is better, but still makes people think you'd be able to see it.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#26

Post by enugu »

spodek wrote: post #18

Let's talk personal responsibility and what we can change. What percent of readers of this site drank water from a plastic bottle in the past, say, 24 hours? ... in places with potable tap water making bottles unnecessary... Or nalgene containers... Or soda, juice, etc in bottles... I recycle what I can, but I've taken to treating recyclables as landfill garbage, since most of it ends up there, which means I avoid co…

I remember reading a book by British energy person on renewables who talked about importance of 'order of magnitude' calculations and how switching off cell phone chargers is not the way to campaign for energy savings.

So, yes getting past the plastic problem is super important. But our solution has to match the scope of the problem. Personal responsibility, reducing consumption is good, but that shouldnt come in the way of thinking in terms of systems. Typically, the conversation moves away from a focus on the issue to an evaluation of ourselves and others.

Some countries have packaging free supermarkets. There are biodegradable alternatives to plastics which keep being proposed but havent become popular for whatever reason. Discussing that would be a good place to start. Funding research or entreprenurship would be a great approach.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#27

Post by gech »

deelowe wrote: post #12
quakeguy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As hard as it seems to acknowledge, but i think you are right. Greed and individual(or corporate) growths always had the biggest influence on the planet. We are indeed doomed should this trend continue. I see no signs this trend will stop.

I think it's less greed and more simple population growth. These technologies were invented in the name of efficiency. We all have a bit of the burden to share here. For example, fishing line. What would happen if we banned this? I think there might be dire consequences for cultures that depend on seafood for sustenance.

Don't just dismiss it. If your business plan requires you to lobby against science and the public good, then we have a problem.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#28

Post by rtpg »

enugu wrote: post #26
spodek wrote: post #18

Let's talk personal responsibility and what we can change. What percent of readers of this site drank water from a plastic bottle in the past, say, 24 hours? ... in places with potable tap water making bottles unnecessary... Or nalgene containers... Or soda, juice, etc in bottles... I recycle what I can, but I've taken to treating recyclables as landfill garbage, since most of it ends up there, which means I avoid co…

I remember reading a book by British energy person on renewables who talked about importance of 'order of magnitude' calculations and how switching off cell phone chargers is not the way to campaign for energy savings. So, yes getting past the plastic problem is super important. But our solution has to match the scope of the problem. Personal responsibility, reducing consumption is good, but that shouldnt come in the…

the power of the personal responsibility reasoning is that it's viral in two directions, and lays the infrastructure for executing on the results of systemic thinking.

It makes you think more broadly about how your lifestyle is contributing to waste (so, you start thinking not just about bottles but about your car). So now you're considering more things.

It also can affect people around you who see you making these decisions. You buy an electric car because "hey I rarely drive more than 50 miles", and more people will think about it. You get tap water, etc.

The problem with systemic thinking is that the process usually starts with "how do we continue the same lifestyle we have". Real gains come from changing how we live our life, and that requires convincing people.

For example, talking about how higher density housing allowing for less car usage first requires convincing people around us to accept higher density housing.

Packaging-free supermarkets do not work in a universe where people don't care about their personal contribution to pollution, especially given that the packaging-free places are more expensive.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#29

Post by maxxxxx »

readams wrote: post #8

I think when people imagine these "garbage patches" they picture a floating garbage dump you could set a lawn chair on. The reality is that they are regions of slightly increased concentration of plastic. Here, the worst areas are between 100-500 grams of plastic per square kilometer. That is 5 empty water bottles in a square kilometer. This doesn't mean that having this debris is a good thing but it's important to g…

Agreed. Somehow I thought there is sort of a plastic island in the middle of the ocean.

Re: A big patch of plastic garbage has been discovered in the Arctic

#30

Post by spodek »

enugu wrote: post #26
spodek wrote: post #18

Let's talk personal responsibility and what we can change. What percent of readers of this site drank water from a plastic bottle in the past, say, 24 hours? ... in places with potable tap water making bottles unnecessary... Or nalgene containers... Or soda, juice, etc in bottles... I recycle what I can, but I've taken to treating recyclables as landfill garbage, since most of it ends up there, which means I avoid co…

I remember reading a book by British energy person on renewables who talked about importance of 'order of magnitude' calculations and how switching off cell phone chargers is not the way to campaign for energy savings. So, yes getting past the plastic problem is super important. But our solution has to match the scope of the problem. Personal responsibility, reducing consumption is good, but that shouldnt come in the…

The book is Sustainable Energy Without The Hot Air, a free download from http://withouthotair.com. An excellent resource.

I agree with avoiding packaging and more. Since I started avoiding food with packaging, I've reduced my landfill garbage to having to empty my household garbage two or three times per year.

With an increase in deliciousness, convenience, and saving money.

Here are a couple posts on it, for those interested:

http://joshuaspodek.com/avoiding-food-packaging

http://joshuaspodek.com/want-run-leaner-waste-less-literally...

These small practices contributed to a bigger practice of not flying for a year (and counting): https://www.inc.com/joshua-spodek/365-days-without-flying.ht... so discovering the joys and rewards of consuming less have compounded, at least in my experience.

I'm also teaching a course in systems thinking, always seeking ways to apply more.

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