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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#21

Post by arca_vorago »

notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

>Now it seems to me that the companies that sell these tractors have decided to pursue a model by which their software is more or less SaSS (providing encrypted updates over the air).

Did you read the article? It doesn't say anything about hacking any SaSS at all. Or about " encrypted updates over the air"... so where in the world are you getting this from?

This is a right to repair issue, as the first part of your statement talks about. This is farmers in the feild, and gasketA broke, now either they have the right to modify their own software (that exist on their systems, not on a server somewhere, so not SaSS), or they have to pay a JD contractor to come out, and lose all that daylight in the meantime.

>Why is it that these farmers believe they have a right to modify that software?

Because, farmers of all people have traditionally been supporters of the free software movement before the free software movement even exist... in the form that farmers have exercised the second software freedom

"The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish. Access to the source code is a precondition for this."

and see no reason they should have to stop now just because some corporation wants more money. In the past instead of software it was justy a pair of pliers and a welder.

The real question is, seeing how to fundamentally misunderstand and misstate the issue, how is it that you think they shouldn't be able to modify their software?

Following this horrible line of thought, what abuse does it not allow? What's next; "You may not weld that axle because it contains our proprietary metal blend and we own the patent on the method for repairing it and we also own the patent on the filler-rod needed "? The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#22

Post by statictype »

save_ferris wrote: post #17
notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

Why is it that farmers don't have a right to modify and fix equipment that they purchased in 2017 because some software they didn't ask to be installed on their equipment prevents them from doing what they've been able to do for generations? Up until a few years ago, farmers used to be able to buy farm equipment with the understanding that they could fix it whenever issues arose and didn't need a gatekeeper to come f…

>because some software they didn't ask to be installed on their equipment

Are you sure about this?

From the article:

today's tractors are high-tech machines that can steer themselves by GPS, you also need a software key — to fix the programs that make a tractor run properly

So - its not the same as the tractors they purchased a few years ago.

Maybe they didn't buy the tractor specifically for those features or maybe you can't even buy a tractor today without those features, but they probably knew what they were getting into before they bought it. Its not a great situation for farmers who don't want those extra bells and whistles but it is what it is.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#24

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

R_haterade wrote: post #18
itchyjunk wrote: post #6

"farmers could damage the machines, like bypassing pollution emissions controls to get more horsepower." Isn't this the problem with warranties? People could try to mod it, end up damaging it and try to get it replaced with warranties. I also don't fully understand this software. Is it just completely vendor locked? That sounds really unreasonable. It should allow for at least basic debugging and trouble shooting. Is…

Can confirm it's usually proprietary and locked. An old roommate is employed by an implement manufacturer--his sole job is traveling the western united states, making housecalls to upload newer versions of control software to equipment. They absolutely DO NOT trust the owners to do it themselves. This has pretty frightening implications for the state of consumer goods, if industrial goods are already going this direc…

Consumer electronics have been disposable for 25 years now. You don't exactly see an electronics repair shop in every town anymore.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#25

Post by cmurf »

andrepd wrote: post #16
notliketherest wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.

> The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. Just two words, capital costs, suffice to throw that entire line of thought to the ground.

It's a huge barrier to market entry effectively making for a natural monopoly. In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar and they don't have that much overlap product wise these days.

If you go through the long list of farming equipment companies, they're all gone now. Defunct, or conglomeration.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#26

Post by TaylorAlexander »

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments.

As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products.

This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for farmers that were not locked down.

Another way we in this community can help is by helping smaller businesses learn the value of open source and get them using and creating it.

I believe with a sufficiently open source base in our economy, we can make great headway into eliminating material poverty.

I write a little about this on my personal site, here:

http://tlalexander.com/machine/

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#27

Post by jacquesm »

notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

> Why is it that these farmers believe they have a right to modify that software?

Because a farmer in the middle of a harvest can't afford to 'wait in line' until the manufacturer or the dealership has time to send someone over to make a repair.

I've lived in a farming area and had a pretty good machine shop as well as a ton of welding gear and it didn't take long before farmers knew where to find me in case of a problem just to temporarily fix the issues they would encounter to be properly taken care of once the harvest is in.

The weather waits for nobody and losing a crop because of equipment failure can put a farmer out of business.

Right to repair.

The best outcome of all this nonsense could be that manufacturers of capital goods such as tractors are by law required to fully document what they sell including schematics, board lay-outs and source code or even a reproducible build package.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#28

Post by fineline »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #24
R_haterade wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm it's usually proprietary and locked. An old roommate is employed by an implement manufacturer--his sole job is traveling the western united states, making housecalls to upload newer versions of control software to equipment. They absolutely DO NOT trust the owners to do it themselves. This has pretty frightening implications for the state of consumer goods, if industrial goods are already going this direc…

Consumer electronics have been disposable for 25 years now. You don't exactly see an electronics repair shop in every town anymore.

Or even basic electrical appliances. I have a toaster, a kettle and a vacuum which are all bricked because of peripheral failures - two poorly (deliberately..?) designed mechanical switches and a charger - which in many cases would cause the whole otherwise functional appliance to be junked. Only somewhat resourceful and stubborn folk like myself bother to fix these things themselves.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#29

Post by Consultant32452 »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

I wonder how much more the bunghole of the RIAA/MPAA would tighten up with DRM if it wasn't even illegal to copy stuff they publish with reckless regard. You'd basically have to outlaw DRM too, or everyone would just make their stuff unusable/uncopyable.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#30

Post by TylerE »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

That will just lead to the Chinesium-ization of all things. No real innovation will occur...just churning out commodity designs in the Far East.
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