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Populism is the result of global economic failure

theguardian.com

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Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#21

Post by adrianN »

gkya wrote: post #3

Populism is the failure of compulsory education and the beginnings of the fall of the 20th century western nation-state. The system favours the more-popular over the objectively-superior, and the biased, ancient mass schooling makes that the rule instead of the exception. We'll have to abolish nations and any sort of tribalism---how sophisticated might it be---or it'll decay by itself hurting everybody until it disap…

You can't abolish nations. Nations happen organically whenever people live together. They just differ in size.

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#22

Post by flashmob »

gkya wrote: post #3

Populism is the failure of compulsory education and the beginnings of the fall of the 20th century western nation-state. The system favours the more-popular over the objectively-superior, and the biased, ancient mass schooling makes that the rule instead of the exception. We'll have to abolish nations and any sort of tribalism---how sophisticated might it be---or it'll decay by itself hurting everybody until it disap…

It's happening already, although very subtle. For example some see Facebook as a digital nation. This is an interesting article from 2011 making this observation http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/the_rise_of_facebook_nation/

Perhaps 20th century western nation-states won't get totally abolished soon, but they'll see a lot more competition from virtual states in the near future!

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#23

Post by lumberjack »

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #18
erelde wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA "proles" fell for populism and elected the worst neocapitalist team possible, against their own interests, that's what we're talking about when we talk about "populism". By and large people (demographically) who voted for the democrats won't be much affected by the GOP gov, but the people who voted for the GOP will be badly affected. If a mod comes here, I vote for closing this post, I feel it is very very prone…

Sharing your country and resources with immigrants is also against one's self-interest, but we don't label that as irrational.

How about your stop shitting on immigrants and blaming them for everything?

It only fosters irrational hate and causes unnecessary violence.

It's not like those immigrants are occupying good paying low skill jobs that could otherwise be done by Americans. They do fruit picking in California for below minimum wage.

Immigration is used as a scapegoat.

Look at Germany. They have the same policies. They have immigration. They have open borders and they have free trade policies and they fully embrace globalism.

Yet Germany retained its high paying relatively low skill jobs and the US didn't. The reason is simply that the various CEOs in the respective countries decided on different business strategies. In the US it seems they decided to go with low cost manufacturing in China/Mexico.

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#24

Post by raverbashing »

ue_ wrote: post #17
grabcocque wrote: post #8

This is the same argument left academics have been using to excuse the repeated failure of electorates to vote for socialism for a century. It's not a new argument. And it nicely avoids left wing thought ever having to take responsibility for its own electoral failures.

Can you give any more references to the sort of thing you're talking about? I believe it's lack of significant class consciousness and the large-scale remnants of propaganda from the Cold War (on which many if not most people are misinformed about Socialism) which are the biggest obstacles to electing a Socialist candidate.

What's there to be misinformed about socialism when they gave us the Berlin Wall and big socioeconomic disadvantages that were not solved even in East Germany today (not to mention Eastern Europe as a whole). Those are facts, not misinformation. Not to mention the usual excuses of "not real socialism"

And those were the ones who got the "best" socialism

"Class consciousness" is divide and conquer crap

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#25

Post by DarkKomunalec »

lumberjack wrote: post #23
DarkKomunalec wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sharing your country and resources with immigrants is also against one's self-interest, but we don't label that as irrational.

How about your stop shitting on immigrants and blaming them for everything? It only fosters irrational hate and causes unnecessary violence. It's not like those immigrants are occupying good paying low skill jobs that could otherwise be done by Americans. They do fruit picking in California for below minimum wage. Immigration is used as a scapegoat. Look at Germany. They have the same policies. They have immigration.…

Immigration increases the supply of low-skilled labour, thus lowering wages. And since a good deal of the US economy is based on exporting, the increase in the demand for labour due to the presence of immigrants is smaller (i.e., they don't have to be in the US to buy iPhones and Snickers bars).

Finally, people are naturally tribalistic - you can blame evolution for that one. Until we fix that, immigration will increase ethnic tensions, which serve as a distraction for corporations to use while they rob you.

But I guess I'm just being irrational..

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#26

Post by tunap »

zip1234 wrote: post #11

I see Donald Trump and Brexit more as a protest against the status quo--which does not mean that the entire system is terrible. It could just mean that people want reforms that benefit the public good and not just some Senator's home state.

Many people rationalized their vote for Trump as a) Not HRC and b) looking for the "change" that was never realized by the last admin. We got both, although we most likely won:t get the "change" we were intending.

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#27

Post by Sone7 »

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #25
lumberjack wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about your stop shitting on immigrants and blaming them for everything? It only fosters irrational hate and causes unnecessary violence. It's not like those immigrants are occupying good paying low skill jobs that could otherwise be done by Americans. They do fruit picking in California for below minimum wage. Immigration is used as a scapegoat. Look at Germany. They have the same policies. They have immigration.…

Immigration increases the supply of low-skilled labour, thus lowering wages. And since a good deal of the US economy is based on exporting, the increase in the demand for labour due to the presence of immigrants is smaller (i.e., they don't have to be in the US to buy iPhones and Snickers bars). Finally, people are naturally tribalistic - you can blame evolution for that one. Until we fix that, immigration will incre…

It does seem a little bit irrational to state that immigration is being used by corps to distract us, while ignoring the positive aspects of it.

Also, saying that people are naturally tribalistic, because of evolution, fails to take into account that we're not slaves to our impulses, and that evolution blatantly favours cooperation over competition.

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#28

Post by Sone7 »

friedman23 wrote: post #15

I find it extremely amusing when one side bashes the other for being anti intellectual and then goes on to bash economists. Anyway, I stopped reading at wage slave, what a load of crap.

Er, mainstream economists. Considering their record, mainstream economists seem far more anti-intellectual than most of their 'bashers'. Though your handle suggests this might be hard for you to swallow.

Also, wage slaves do exist. America is full of them, and it's very much deliberate and intentional. I knew an extremely kind and bubbly lady with the incredible skill of recognizing every one she's ever met, no matter how long ago. She could remember their name, and the names of their whole family. She worked two crap paying full-time jobs to support her small family, and did not have any options, because of America's totally fucked welfare system. That's a wage slave. With respect, if you think wage slavery isn't a thing in America you're in a very strange bubble.

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#29

Post by DarkKomunalec »

Sone7 wrote: post #27
DarkKomunalec wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration increases the supply of low-skilled labour, thus lowering wages. And since a good deal of the US economy is based on exporting, the increase in the demand for labour due to the presence of immigrants is smaller (i.e., they don't have to be in the US to buy iPhones and Snickers bars). Finally, people are naturally tribalistic - you can blame evolution for that one. Until we fix that, immigration will incre…

It does seem a little bit irrational to state that immigration is being used by corps to distract us, while ignoring the positive aspects of it. Also, saying that people are naturally tribalistic, because of evolution, fails to take into account that we're not slaves to our impulses, and that evolution blatantly favours cooperation over competition.

Tribalism is as much about cooperation as about competition - help the virtuous Us to drive out the villainous Them.

It makes it no less easy to abuse however, e.g. "Look at those no-good black welfare queens with their 12 kids paid for by good honest white people! Cut social spending!"

Re: Populism is the result of global economic failure

#30

Post by ue_ »

raverbashing wrote: post #24
ue_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give any more references to the sort of thing you're talking about? I believe it's lack of significant class consciousness and the large-scale remnants of propaganda from the Cold War (on which many if not most people are misinformed about Socialism) which are the biggest obstacles to electing a Socialist candidate.

What's there to be misinformed about socialism when they gave us the Berlin Wall and big socioeconomic disadvantages that were not solved even in East Germany today (not to mention Eastern Europe as a whole). Those are facts, not misinformation. Not to mention the usual excuses of "not real socialism" And those were the ones who got the "best" socialism "Class consciousness" is divide and conquer crap

> Not to mention the usual excuses of "not real socialism"

I feel as though I've gone into this a thousand times. If I had a penny for every time someone said this, I'd invest in stocks and shares and become a capitalist.

The act of refusing to back up or defend all or any implementations or interpretations of an idea, especially given pre-existing economic conditions and various external factors is by no means making a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Even if I were to accept your premise that Socialism actually existed in GDR, it wouldn't rule out anarcho-Communism, anarchism, communalism, gradualist Communism, non-Leninist Marxism and a whole host of other leftist ideologies.

Class consciousness refers to the proletariat recognising their interests as a class; it is only divide and conquer in the sense that recognising the division of society (albeit a little more fuzzy nowadays) between the bourgeoisie and proletariat is a startig point to conquer capitalism.

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