A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck • Hacker News Board

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#21

Post by 1_2__3 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #10

davidf18 wrote: post #3

Money if fungible. California spends an enormous amount of money on illegal aliens (illegal immigrants). For example, there was an NYT op-ed piece which explained that 200 illegal aliens are allowed to attend at in-state tuition UC Berkeley. Thus, the Federal Funds noted in this article were in fact being used to fund people who are residing in this country illegally. We don't even have enough money for the poor who…

People are down voting, the but the assessment is a correct one: California citizens need to elect responsible politicians that spend money on people who live in the the US and CA legally instead of those illegally. If they elected responsible politicians that understood this, they would have their train funded. Taxes should be only spent on people living in the US legally. Not certain why people have a problem with…

> Not certain why people have a problem with that.

I'm even less certain you're willing to listen to anyone who tries to explain to you how faulty your logic is. Especially since you repeatedly try to distill down the complicated topics to bumperstickerisms.

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#22

Post by johnduhart » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #16

davidf18 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "By your argument, California could easily afford to pay for it if only Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, Montana, and Kentucky were not "mooching" off of it." Not if the funds are paying for people living in these states legally. . Surely you see the distinction between funding people legally living in the US and those living here illegally. What I know is that if California elected responsible politicians that u…

Instead of down voting, please state why you want to fund people who are living in the US illegally instead of funding a train for people who are here legally.

I'm confused, where did the he/she state that?

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#23

Post by jedberg » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #14

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #4

They should've started high speed rail in the bookends, since any construction there would have immediate benefits for hundreds of thousands of riders, and instill public confidence in the project. That would've helped Caltrain electrification right there.

Well the Caltrain electrification is in one of the book ends. The logic for starting in the middle is that it created economic assistance (as a side effect) in an area with a jobs problem. Why not start that part sooner rather than later?

Because no one will ride that section. If you start on the ends people will actually pay money to ride the train, which then funds construction on the other part of the train and provides steady jobs instead of only temporary ones.

If you want to provide welfare to people without jobs, then provide welfare. Don't provide secret welfare and call it a high speed train.

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#24

Post by davidf18 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

iagooar wrote: post #12

davidf18 wrote: post #3

Money if fungible. California spends an enormous amount of money on illegal aliens (illegal immigrants). For example, there was an NYT op-ed piece which explained that 200 illegal aliens are allowed to attend at in-state tuition UC Berkeley. Thus, the Federal Funds noted in this article were in fact being used to fund people who are residing in this country illegally. We don't even have enough money for the poor who…

Words can't express how sad I feel about people who write and believe in such a logic. Where is our humanity gone? How can you think that by helping people (legal or not) you are doing something wrong? USA is a country that has a massive problem with not accepting what it is, what it has, and what it could have. But then again, a country is made of diverse people. I feel happy that some people in California feel that…

> "Words can't express how sad I feel about people who write and believe in such a logic. Where is our humanity gone?"

The correct term is illegal aliens. I didn't create the term, but I do use the language correctly.

My humanity is for those poor people who live in the US who don't get enough funding as it is and who lose out on the funding because of illegal aliens. That is where my humanity is. My question to you is where is your humanity for the poor Americans, many who don't have nearly the IQ of readers of HN and who are losing their jobs and not getting enough support.

> "The poor living legally in your country ARE NOT competing for resources with "illegal aliens" you call them (I find it absurd to even consider a person, a HUMAN BEING, to be illegal, but that's a different topic). Your country has way more resources available than those dedicated to eradicating poverty."

That is an incorrect statement. There is only so much tax money and much of that money is used for funding K-12 education, university education, healthcare, etc. etc. for illegal aliens instead of better funding the poor.

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#25

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

iagooar wrote: post #12

davidf18 wrote: post #3

Money if fungible. California spends an enormous amount of money on illegal aliens (illegal immigrants). For example, there was an NYT op-ed piece which explained that 200 illegal aliens are allowed to attend at in-state tuition UC Berkeley. Thus, the Federal Funds noted in this article were in fact being used to fund people who are residing in this country illegally. We don't even have enough money for the poor who…

Words can't express how sad I feel about people who write and believe in such a logic. Where is our humanity gone? How can you think that by helping people (legal or not) you are doing something wrong? USA is a country that has a massive problem with not accepting what it is, what it has, and what it could have. But then again, a country is made of diverse people. I feel happy that some people in California feel that…

> The poor living legally in your country ARE NOT competing for resources with "illegal aliens" you call them

I am generally support immigration. But we need to remain realistic.

Of course such competition exists. If an anti-poverty program for only me costs X, then that program for a million people will cost more [1]. It takes more resources, in aggregate, to maintain something for more people. That, in turn, means there are fewer resources for e.g. saving piggly-wiggly turtles or whatever. You could raise taxes, but that just means fewer resources in taxpayers' pockets in favour of more anti-poverty programs and piggly-wiggly turtles et cetera. Resources are finite, human wants are unlimited, and political capital is a delicate thing.

[1] citation needed

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#26

Post by JamilD » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #14

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #4

They should've started high speed rail in the bookends, since any construction there would have immediate benefits for hundreds of thousands of riders, and instill public confidence in the project. That would've helped Caltrain electrification right there.

Well the Caltrain electrification is in one of the book ends. The logic for starting in the middle is that it created economic assistance (as a side effect) in an area with a jobs problem. Why not start that part sooner rather than later?

Exactly -- the HSR Authority is investing heavily in upgrades to Caltrain and Metrolink; they provide tangible benefits to commuters in the cities while building the infrastructure they need to run the high-speed trains in the cities. They can't get the high-speed trains running between SF and SJ until electrification and upgrades to the corridor are finished.

And at the same time, they're doing construction in the Central Valley, which is cheaper and easier on a per-mile basis. Just wish they could find a way to do it faster though; 7 years for SJ-Bakersfield seems like an unreasonably long time.

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#27

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #14

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #4

They should've started high speed rail in the bookends, since any construction there would have immediate benefits for hundreds of thousands of riders, and instill public confidence in the project. That would've helped Caltrain electrification right there.

Well the Caltrain electrification is in one of the book ends. The logic for starting in the middle is that it created economic assistance (as a side effect) in an area with a jobs problem. Why not start that part sooner rather than later?

> it created economic assistance (as a side effect)

Let's be honest, it was an important if not dominant reason for this project.

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#28

Post by ZanyProgrammer » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #19

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #4

They should've started high speed rail in the bookends, since any construction there would have immediate benefits for hundreds of thousands of riders, and instill public confidence in the project. That would've helped Caltrain electrification right there.

Yup. The train is a huge boondoggle, mostly because they are building it backwards. Building the middle part where no one lives is easier and will make a lot of jobs in a lot of poor areas, but then it is just a secret welfare program, not a useful piece of infrastructure. Let's just provide welfare if that's the goal, and then build some useful infrastructure like electrified tracks in the Bay Area and bullet train…

I think the Central Valley was a giant fait accompli to get the rest of the project funded in case of a political crisis.

The prevailing mood in 08-09 was also that CAHSR would be used similarly to the economic stimulus passed by congress. You would think listening to CAHSR blog and their ilk back then that Fresno and Bakersfield were the navel of the world.

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#29

Post by erentz » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

Question: the imbalance between what California contributes vs receivers from the federal government is pretty crazy to me. I'll grant some imbalances are necessary - you will always have richer and poorer areas of the country. But when he gap is as wide as it is, and then it is turned into a tool for punishing CA due to our politics, at what point should CA seek to seriously tackle this? Firstly of course is the very long shot possibility of successon, but I was wondering if there might be something in the tax code that would allow CA to shut off the flow of money to the federal government? Perhaps by implementing some kind of massive tax and dividend scheme (e.g. naively I'm thinking if I'm allowed to deduct state taxes - what stops CA from taxing 100% of my income, so I pay nothing to the federal government, then CA pays me a "dividend" equal to my income minus whatever the real tax rate should be (30% or whatever).

Re: A Silicon Valley Train Gets Stuck

#30

Post by ZanyProgrammer » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #14

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #4

They should've started high speed rail in the bookends, since any construction there would have immediate benefits for hundreds of thousands of riders, and instill public confidence in the project. That would've helped Caltrain electrification right there.

Well the Caltrain electrification is in one of the book ends. The logic for starting in the middle is that it created economic assistance (as a side effect) in an area with a jobs problem. Why not start that part sooner rather than later?

Because they are temp jobs and no one will ride those tracks for years?