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Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

nytimes.com

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Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#21

Post by kafkaesq »

misterbowfinger wrote: post #16
kafkaesq wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use the dropdown to go to New York and checkout NYC, your conclusion would be that all NYC students are unjustly funded and have much less than everyone else. But.... that makes no sense. New York City has some of the best public schools in the country. No, your conclusion, going by the coloring on the map, would not be that "all NYC students are unjustly funded". But rather, that "On average, NYC students are…

Yes, exactly! And yet, the schools are still really, really good! Partially it's because the analysis is at the county level, and not at the district level. But I'd argue that using "averages" in the first place is extremely lossy and a classic Stats 101 mistake.

And yet, the schools are still really, really good!

This is a particularly weird statement to make in regard to NYC school performance, across the board.

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#22

Post by misterbowfinger »

Shivetya wrote: post #18
misterbowfinger wrote: post #12

He links to a study on unjust school funding: http://viz.edbuild.org/maps/2016/cola/resource-inequality/#s... The analysis here is flawed. An example that doesn't make sense is NYC. If you use the dropdown to go to New York and checkout NYC, your conclusion would be that all NYC students are unjustly funded and have much less than everyone else. But.... that makes no sense. New York City has some of the best public s…

Segregation has always been bad in North but that was and has been continuously swept under the rug for decades. Even Malcolm X called them out on it when everyone was going after the South. Still I want to see job prospects numbers across fields and education levels. Are we comparing apples to apples here? If you just say "all whites" and "all blacks" that discounts people with good education versus poor ones. So do…

The Obamas are definitely doing something about it:

http://www.mbkalliance.org/

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#23

Post by infosample »

astrodust wrote: post #11
maxerickson wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blinding. An example is orchestras. They use a screen so that the people deciding between musicians can't see the person auditioning.

You can only get so far with this, that's the problem. Eventually the candidate will show up and people will make snap judgements. "He's wearing gang clothes" or "I thought he was a rapper" and you're going to have massively skewed data. A coding interview conducted via online chat only, no voice, could be educational, but it might also over-select those used to texting and online chatting.

> You can only get so far with this

Is improving a problem not worthwhile without completely eliminating it?

> "He's wearing gang clothes" or "I thought he was a rapper"

Are gang clothes business attire now? That's what I see people of color wearing to interviews and work.

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#24

Post by astrodust »

infosample wrote: post #23
astrodust wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only get so far with this, that's the problem. Eventually the candidate will show up and people will make snap judgements. "He's wearing gang clothes" or "I thought he was a rapper" and you're going to have massively skewed data. A coding interview conducted via online chat only, no voice, could be educational, but it might also over-select those used to texting and online chatting.

> You can only get so far with this Is improving a problem not worthwhile without completely eliminating it? > "He's wearing gang clothes" or "I thought he was a rapper" Are gang clothes business attire now? That's what I see people of color wearing to interviews and work.

I'm speaking about impressions, not the actuality of it. One person's casual attire, which is the norm for a lot of interviews now, might be interpreted as "gang clothes" even when they're clearly not.

Like is a simple Kangol t-shirt "gang clothes"? By the same token a Lulu Lemon or Izod shirt is, they're just different "gangs". People have a way of reading into things. A well-dressed black person might look "like a drug dealer" while a scruffy white dude might look "like a real programmer". It's a matter of perception. Our pattern matching is often badly distorted by the media.

Improving is always a good idea, but if it completely handicaps entire groups of people it's not necessarily an improvement, it's just shifting the artificial rejection criteria.

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#25

Post by infosample »

Shivetya wrote: post #18
misterbowfinger wrote: post #12

He links to a study on unjust school funding: http://viz.edbuild.org/maps/2016/cola/resource-inequality/#s... The analysis here is flawed. An example that doesn't make sense is NYC. If you use the dropdown to go to New York and checkout NYC, your conclusion would be that all NYC students are unjustly funded and have much less than everyone else. But.... that makes no sense. New York City has some of the best public s…

Segregation has always been bad in North but that was and has been continuously swept under the rug for decades. Even Malcolm X called them out on it when everyone was going after the South. Still I want to see job prospects numbers across fields and education levels. Are we comparing apples to apples here? If you just say "all whites" and "all blacks" that discounts people with good education versus poor ones. So do…

Obama gave plenty of respectability politics[0] speeches. This argument is as old as U.S. Reconstruction. The problem isn't inspiration, working hard, or wanting a better day for their children.

Actual laws set up these neighborhoods, schools, prisons, and employment consequences.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#26

Post by [deleted] »

misterbowfinger wrote: post #12

He links to a study on unjust school funding: http://viz.edbuild.org/maps/2016/cola/resource-inequality/#s... The analysis here is flawed. An example that doesn't make sense is NYC. If you use the dropdown to go to New York and checkout NYC, your conclusion would be that all NYC students are unjustly funded and have much less than everyone else. But.... that makes no sense. New York City has some of the best public s…

[deleted]

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#27

Post by infosample »

astrodust wrote: post #24
infosample wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can only get so far with this Is improving a problem not worthwhile without completely eliminating it? > "He's wearing gang clothes" or "I thought he was a rapper" Are gang clothes business attire now? That's what I see people of color wearing to interviews and work.

I'm speaking about impressions, not the actuality of it. One person's casual attire, which is the norm for a lot of interviews now, might be interpreted as "gang clothes" even when they're clearly not. Like is a simple Kangol t-shirt "gang clothes"? By the same token a Lulu Lemon or Izod shirt is, they're just different "gangs". People have a way of reading into things. A well-dressed black person might look "like a…

Please don't use clothing as a straw man for a real issue.

Blind interviewing does not handicap anyone. The way to improve the perception of an applicant as a gangster or a rapper is for them to prove it on the job. You want the most qualified right? Hire based on actual qualifications. Implement a dress code for your conscience and get back to business.

Re: Blacks with no criminal record have same sucess geting jobs as whites out prison

#28

Post by astrodust »

infosample wrote: post #27
astrodust wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm speaking about impressions, not the actuality of it. One person's casual attire, which is the norm for a lot of interviews now, might be interpreted as "gang clothes" even when they're clearly not. Like is a simple Kangol t-shirt "gang clothes"? By the same token a Lulu Lemon or Izod shirt is, they're just different "gangs". People have a way of reading into things. A well-dressed black person might look "like a…

Please don't use clothing as a straw man for a real issue. Blind interviewing does not handicap anyone. The way to improve the perception of an applicant as a gangster or a rapper is for them to prove it on the job. You want the most qualified right? Hire based on actual qualifications. Implement a dress code for your conscience and get back to business.

It's a real issue. Many people have found that clothing is often the biggest impediment to being treated seriously on the job.

It affects women and minorities in different but equally profound ways. Meanwhile white males can wear whatever and nobody cares. Bath robe to work? "He's a 10x coder, we just let him do his own thing..."

This isn't about a "dress code", this is about perception. You could have a company mandated uniform where everyone wears exactly the same thing and they'd still find reason to be suspicious of people.

I use the clothing problem as an example because it's the biggest one. There are too many stories of people not being taken seriously because of what they wear when what they're wearing isn't the least bit unprofessional or inappropriate. It's just how people project things onto appearances.

> Blind interviewing does not handicap anyone.

Can you name one company that uses an actual blind interview for a technical positions successfully? How about a company that can apply the same rigour to technical and performance reviews?

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