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To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

arstechnica.com

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Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#21

Post by ChuckMcM »

Huffers2 wrote: post #14
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

I've never understood this. If I gather evidence against somebody illegally, and it proves their guilt, shouldn't we both go to jail?

The structure is to keep police officers honest which is more important than a particular person going to jail. The operating principle is that a dishonest police force is more dangerous than a criminal who was caught using illegal evidence. Typically the criminal will commit another crime and if you get evidence against them legally, then you can prosecute them for the new crime.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#22

Post by woolly »

Huffers2 wrote: post #14
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

I've never understood this. If I gather evidence against somebody illegally, and it proves their guilt, shouldn't we both go to jail?

I think the logic is: "If you're willing to gather evidence against somebody illegally, then you'd also be willing to fabricate evidence that doesn't exist".

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#23

Post by xorcist »

bbcbasic wrote: post #17
hasenj wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? In general if a criminal goes free despite having evidence against him just because the evidence was not obtained legally ... it sounds rather wrong to me.

That would encourage police to gather evidence illegally all the time, because it works. Which is consider a worse state of affairs than guilty people going free. Just imagine undercover police walking into every home that left their door unlocked and having a snoop around. They could do that and get some convictions out of it.

No. That does not follow at all. What it means is that the undercover police illegally collecting evidence is convicted, _and_ the child pornographer is convicted.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#24

Post by wolfgke »

Huffers2 wrote: post #14
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

I've never understood this. If I gather evidence against somebody illegally, and it proves their guilt, shouldn't we both go to jail?

This argument would legitimize torture if society would agree on that it is legitimate. So it's a really bad idea to accept this argument.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#25

Post by sanswork »

xorcist wrote: post #23
bbcbasic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would encourage police to gather evidence illegally all the time, because it works. Which is consider a worse state of affairs than guilty people going free. Just imagine undercover police walking into every home that left their door unlocked and having a snoop around. They could do that and get some convictions out of it.

No. That does not follow at all. What it means is that the undercover police illegally collecting evidence is convicted, _and_ the child pornographer is convicted.

How do you trust the evidence of someone who you can prove(to the point of conviction) is willing to do illegal things to gather the evidence?

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#26

Post by tptacek »

Huffers2 wrote: post #14
woolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

I've never understood this. If I gather evidence against somebody illegally, and it proves their guilt, shouldn't we both go to jail?

You're getting a lot of huffy responses to this question, but it is an entirely legitimate one. In fact, many (maybe most?) western countries don't have the same exclusionary rules the US has. There are other remedies to police misconduct. If you were starting a nation from first principles, it's not an iron law of justice that your courts have that rule.

The reason we believe the exclusionary rule works so well is that it strikes directly at the incentive structure for the police. We don't have to convince evidence-gathering officers of their liability or assess liability up and down the chain of responsibilities on the prosecution's side; we just have to assess whether evidence was handled properly, and, if it wasn't, the prosecutors lose the evidence. The one simple rule neatly ensures that nobody --- in any role --- on the prosecution's side has any incentive to mishandle evidence (or coerce underlings or partner organizations to mishandle it).

But clearly the rule isn't a requirement. We don't generally believe, for instance, that Canada's criminal justice system is systemically corrupt, and they don't have a hard-and-fast exclusion rule.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#27

Post by bbcbasic »

xorcist wrote: post #23
bbcbasic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would encourage police to gather evidence illegally all the time, because it works. Which is consider a worse state of affairs than guilty people going free. Just imagine undercover police walking into every home that left their door unlocked and having a snoop around. They could do that and get some convictions out of it.

No. That does not follow at all. What it means is that the undercover police illegally collecting evidence is convicted, _and_ the child pornographer is convicted.

I don't see that happening. Maybe just the child pornographer and 10 innocent black men.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#28

Post by bbcbasic »

sanswork wrote: post #25
xorcist wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That does not follow at all. What it means is that the undercover police illegally collecting evidence is convicted, _and_ the child pornographer is convicted.

How do you trust the evidence of someone who you can prove(to the point of conviction) is willing to do illegal things to gather the evidence?

The evidence is the evidence. A criminal is a criminal. Someone up this chain of thread was making that point.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#29

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

endgame wrote: post #4

Won't someone think of the children?

Are you serious or being facetious?

If you are being serious, I'd like to direct you to the wikipedia page on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

"In debate, however, as a plea for pity, used as an appeal to emotion, it is a logical fallacy"

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#30

Post by mcbits »

wolfgke wrote: post #24
Huffers2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood this. If I gather evidence against somebody illegally, and it proves their guilt, shouldn't we both go to jail?

This argument would legitimize torture if society would agree on that it is legitimate. So it's a really bad idea to accept this argument.

The way the system is now, if you gather evidence by "torture" (remembering it's just an analogy) and fail to come up with a convincing cover story for how you gathered the evidence, then the case is dismissed and everyone goes home. "Welp, it was worth a try!" It's this current system that's at risk of legitimizing torture as yet another illegal-but-oh-well tool for investigation.
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