New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling • Hacker News Board

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#21

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 5:38 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #15

byronwall wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of pounds of plastic are made every year for milk jugs. A 30% improvement would not be lost in the noise.

Lost in the noise of producing milk. There is an astronomical amount of environmental resources to get to the point of filling the jug. Just wasting less milk (buy only what you can use to avoid dumping what has gone bad) would blow 'lighter milk jug' out of the water by many orders of magnitude. And using 30% fewer jugs saves 30% right out of the gate.

[deleted]

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#22

Post by 24gttghh » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #11

24gttghh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the final paragraph of the article: "If you could make a milk jug with 30 percent less material because it's mechanically better, think of the sustainability of that," he said. "You're using less plastic, less oil, you have less stuff to recycle, you have a lighter product that uses less fossil fuel to move it." In effect this could help to reduce consumption as you suggest (and as I agree).

The milk jug is so light and thin already, any more improvement is lost in the noise. Consume (waste) less milk, you're doing an order of magnitude more good.

I do agree with reducing consumption in general, but less plastic per bottle certainly helps in this regard. I think drinking less or no "milk" (or any other drink) by itself is not a practical solution on its own.

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#23

Post by OliverJones » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

I wish I could ask the chemists this question:

How does your innovation fare when it ends up, in large quantities, in one of the oceanic plastic gyres? Is it better / worse / the same than the equivalent mass of polypropylene or polyethylene?

I'm asking specifically about longevity and environmental impact both of the new "alloy" itself and its degradation products.

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#24

Post by anexprogrammer » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

We're still asking the wrong question.

The frustrating thing is we were doing miles better in the 80s, even though to be evironmentally aware then meant you were thought of as some sort of hippie or anarchist type.

Lots of supermarkets still sold milk in glass bottles as used by milkmen. You returned the empties to the store/milkman and they could be reused indefinitely. Milkmen delivering to door were still common.

A couple of supermarkets had bio-degradeable carrier bags that were just as good as plastic, they just had a slightly different (nicer tbh) texture. They had mysteriously disppeared by the 90s, so presumably cost a fraction more.

Most products had yet to succumb to the insanity of plastic and packaging. Lots of pop (soda) came in glass bottles or cans, just a few preferred plastic. Sealed packs of 3 slices of ham or one apple were still in some dystopian future. Paper, card and greaseproof paper were still common packaging.

A typical family would get nowhere near the amount of waste an average family generates in these "environmentally aware" times.

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#25

Post by ChuckMcM » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 6:36 PM UTC

Nice work, I hope they can commercialize it.

One of the challenges I discovered about plastic recycling is that you can't easily separate plastics and people do a lousy job of it. With aluminum cans (70% recycled[1]) you can use ferrous metal screening to separate and a lot of other impurities burn off when smelting it.

But with plastics if you mix two incompatible types (polypropylene and polyethylene) the result is a crappy plastic that is brittle and weak. And there is no simple way of splitting them apart when they are mixed together. As a result it is really hard to get nice clean recycle plastic of a single 'type' and that limits its uses tremendously.

The ideal solution would be to be able to mix some magic mojo into a plastic and turn it into the finished product (which is what these scientists propose AFAICT).

[1] http://www.aluminum.org/news/study-finds-aluminum-cans-susta...

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#26

Post by Pamar » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #24

We're still asking the wrong question. The frustrating thing is we were doing miles better in the 80s, even though to be evironmentally aware then meant you were thought of as some sort of hippie or anarchist type. Lots of supermarkets still sold milk in glass bottles as used by milkmen. You returned the empties to the store/milkman and they could be reused indefinitely. Milkmen delivering to door were still common.…

In Germany water bottles have an automatic markup of 25 eurocents/bottle. Every supermarket has special devices that will scan the bottle barcode and give you back 25 cents for each compatible bottle you put in - the money is delivered as a coupon you can use at the cashier to pay for stuff (you can also ask for cash if you want).

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#27

Post by ci5er » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #9

For our personal behavior, let's remember than reducing consumption reduces pollution more than reusing, which reduces pollution more than recycling. By the time you're relying on recycling, you've already polluted a lot more than you needed to, all the more so at the poor efficiency the article reports. If you don't create the plastic bottle you don't have to figure out how to undo its pollution. We probably can't a…

Remember, if possible, reduction to zero use is best of all! Imagine how much better off the world would have been if we hadn't found cures for polio and small pox and minor bacterial infections - and reduced the incidence of many more - if we hadn't eliminated the earth's human-filtering effect of starvation through the green revolution. The world, she would be so much more sustainable then!

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#28

Post by sametmax » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #11

24gttghh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the final paragraph of the article: "If you could make a milk jug with 30 percent less material because it's mechanically better, think of the sustainability of that," he said. "You're using less plastic, less oil, you have less stuff to recycle, you have a lighter product that uses less fossil fuel to move it." In effect this could help to reduce consumption as you suggest (and as I agree).

The milk jug is so light and thin already, any more improvement is lost in the noise. Consume (waste) less milk, you're doing an order of magnitude more good.

Plus you may found out you are part of a population getting healthier with less milk input, and it's always good to know. It can take a lot of time to notice, and no doctor is going to advice for it but the effects can be important. It's worth a try.

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#29

Post by anexprogrammer » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

Pamar wrote: post #26

anexprogrammer wrote: post #24

We're still asking the wrong question. The frustrating thing is we were doing miles better in the 80s, even though to be evironmentally aware then meant you were thought of as some sort of hippie or anarchist type. Lots of supermarkets still sold milk in glass bottles as used by milkmen. You returned the empties to the store/milkman and they could be reused indefinitely. Milkmen delivering to door were still common.…

In Germany water bottles have an automatic markup of 25 eurocents/bottle. Every supermarket has special devices that will scan the bottle barcode and give you back 25 cents for each compatible bottle you put in - the money is delivered as a coupon you can use at the cashier to pay for stuff (you can also ask for cash if you want).

Sometime in the 80s or 90s there was interest in introducing the same as plastic was starting to be used for more bottles. From memory it was very popular with the public at the time. Nothing ever came of it, so presumably the Thatcher govt considered it an unfair imposition on businesses.

So now we have towns and hedgerows full of discarded plastic bottles.

Re: New polymer additive could revolutionize plastics recycling

#30

Post by misterbwong » Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #24

We're still asking the wrong question. The frustrating thing is we were doing miles better in the 80s, even though to be evironmentally aware then meant you were thought of as some sort of hippie or anarchist type. Lots of supermarkets still sold milk in glass bottles as used by milkmen. You returned the empties to the store/milkman and they could be reused indefinitely. Milkmen delivering to door were still common.…

Miles better in one sense (waste accumulation/environment) but miles worse in at least one other: convenience.

Guess which one is more important to the general consumer? People voted with their wallets.