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NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

arstechnica.com

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Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#21
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specific impulse or Isp is what you want. And yes, ion thrust takes a lot less propellant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster However, this is not really 'new' tech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 used an early version in 1998.

(IAN a physics major) But to elaborate per my understanding, there are 2 important variables you're playing with in rocket engines: - Specific impulse / Isp (aka how much thrust you get for a given amount of propellant) - Maximum Thrust Due to the rocket equation [1], adding more propellant increases the weight of your vehicle, making it harder to move, requiring more propellant, etc etc. So being efficient with your…

This is correct but incomplete: Vasimr may have a higher power density (be it power per thruster mass or per thruster volume) than ion thrusters but I am pretty sure it has lower power density than a Hall thruster, while being also much more complex.

The main (and not yet verified) claim of Vasimr compared to existing and proven tech like Hall thrusters is the ability to greatly vary the specific impulse.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#22
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specific impulse or Isp is what you want. And yes, ion thrust takes a lot less propellant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster However, this is not really 'new' tech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 used an early version in 1998.

> However, this is not really 'new' tech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 used an early version in 1998. As discussed in the article, this is a very different kind of ion thruster. That category is quite large. In particular, I believe essentially all ion thrusters flown have been electrostatic ion thrusters, including both Deep Space 1 and the Hall thrusters discussed in the article. https://en.wikipedia.…

They all need a propellant and power feed. But, you can use those same feeds for an array of multiple engines. Thus, 'scaling up' has a wide range of options and trade-offs. Vasimr let's you scale power output a lot from the same engine, but so would an array of smaller engines.

With that in mind the specific techniques are important, but the gaps are often overstated.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#23

FTA: "And at a time when the national discourse assails the value of Spanish-speaking immigrants..." What a load. Aside from the repellent need by the author to inject politics into a science story, it's flat-out wrong : the rancor isn't over people who (like Chang-Díaz) pursue legal citizenship or legal residency, nor is it over people who speak a particular language simply on the basis of that language.

With respect, I disagree. Derogatory terms like "anchor babies" describe people who are, after all, US citizens of immigrant descent. Similarly, the rancor directed at the judge in the Trump university case had nothing to do with legal citizenship and everything to do with Hispanic ancestry. And obviously refugees are legal immigrants granted that status by the US State Department. But this doesn't prevent them from…

There may be some xenophobia and racism there, but I think there's also a substantive amount of anger among a sizeable amount of the populace due to how the rule of law is selectively applied, and how open-borders advocates intentionally blur the lines between lawful immigrants and individuals who illegally enter a sovereign nation.

Case in point: in the last couple of months, how much have we heard the "we are a nation of immigrants" line, especially during a border security debate...as if just about everyone, including the passengers of the Mayflower, skirted customs?

The racists and xenophobes likely don't want immigrants, but I think the vast majority of Americans are happy to welcome folks from other countries who have demonstrated respect for our laws by entering the country legally. Hell, if you've spoken to naturalized citizens, they're often the most patriotic, pro-American people you'll encounter!

And many of those Americans, who have spent time, money and energy to become citizens, are strongly against the lackadaisical border enforcement that has led to the current mess.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In space, probably by shade.

Isn't it extremely hard to dump waste heat in a vacuum?

I don't know how hard it is, but the ISS uses big radiators to dump excess heat into space.

> The Station's outstretched radiators are made of honeycomb aluminum panels. There are 14 panels, each measuring 6 by 10 feet (1.8 by 3 meters), for a total of 1680 square feet (156 square meters) of ammonia-tubing-filled heat exchange area.

More info at https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/a...

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In space, probably by shade.

Isn't it extremely hard to dump waste heat in a vacuum?

There's hard theoretical limits on the rate at which you radiate heat, so without contact with an external medium or dumping mass, you're pretty much stuck with limits based on how big your radiators are

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, I disagree. Derogatory terms like "anchor babies" describe people who are, after all, US citizens of immigrant descent. Similarly, the rancor directed at the judge in the Trump university case had nothing to do with legal citizenship and everything to do with Hispanic ancestry. And obviously refugees are legal immigrants granted that status by the US State Department. But this doesn't prevent them from…

There may be some xenophobia and racism there, but I think there's also a substantive amount of anger among a sizeable amount of the populace due to how the rule of law is selectively applied, and how open-borders advocates intentionally blur the lines between lawful immigrants and individuals who illegally enter a sovereign nation. Case in point: in the last couple of months, how much have we heard the "we are a nat…

I appreciate that you acknowledge that racism and xenophobia taint the arguments you're making, even if you yourself are not racist or xenophobic. It's hard to stand up for a view when it is held by people who are widely reviled, and I suspect that courage is something our country needs more of.

However, I think the examples I provided compellingly demonstrate that issues of legality do not sit at the core of the anti-immigration sentiment in the US. In particular, an overwhelming concern for the sanctity of law would likely not motivate one to demand that a sitting judge recuse themselves because of their ancestry. Nor can it have motivated anti-refugee sentiment.

More broadly, the argument about rule of law does not have good explanatory power for the actions and statements of those who make it. It does not explain opposition to open borders, or to more expansive visa programs, which of course could both be made law with comparative ease. And it seems obvious to me that anti-immigrant militias like the Minutemen represent the height of contempt for the rule of law, but somehow find a warm reception among those who advance the very argument that you do.

Does this mean that nobody legitimately cares about the legality of immigrants? Of course not. It is possible that a broad coalition of people simply happen to agree on this wide range of narrow topics that have nothing whatsoever to do with race or ancestry. But Occam's razor suggests that the simpler argument is the better one: that duplicity and political convenience are at play.

Specifically, I suspect that the broader anti-immigrant movement in the US believes it has a winner of an argument in this one despite its lack of policy prescriptions. As a result this argument-- the one you make-- often gets advanced as a fig leaf for those "other" viewpoints. Which leaves you in the awkward position of carrying water for some truly despicable people, whatever your own views are.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#28

FTA: "And at a time when the national discourse assails the value of Spanish-speaking immigrants..." What a load. Aside from the repellent need by the author to inject politics into a science story, it's flat-out wrong : the rancor isn't over people who (like Chang-Díaz) pursue legal citizenship or legal residency, nor is it over people who speak a particular language simply on the basis of that language.

Yes. People are deliberately trying to muddy the line between legal and illegal immigration in support of their own agendas.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#29
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(IAN a physics major) But to elaborate per my understanding, there are 2 important variables you're playing with in rocket engines: - Specific impulse / Isp (aka how much thrust you get for a given amount of propellant) - Maximum Thrust Due to the rocket equation [1], adding more propellant increases the weight of your vehicle, making it harder to move, requiring more propellant, etc etc. So being efficient with your…

This is correct but incomplete: Vasimr may have a higher power density (be it power per thruster mass or per thruster volume) than ion thrusters but I am pretty sure it has lower power density than a Hall thruster, while being also much more complex. The main (and not yet verified) claim of Vasimr compared to existing and proven tech like Hall thrusters is the ability to greatly vary the specific impulse.

That's what the article claims. That you can run in a less efficient mode that produces more total thrust when you're climbing out of a gravity well, then switch to the lower thrust higher efficiency mode for the long haul.

Re: NASA’s longshot bet on a revolutionary rocket may be about to pay off

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be some xenophobia and racism there, but I think there's also a substantive amount of anger among a sizeable amount of the populace due to how the rule of law is selectively applied, and how open-borders advocates intentionally blur the lines between lawful immigrants and individuals who illegally enter a sovereign nation. Case in point: in the last couple of months, how much have we heard the "we are a nat…

I appreciate that you acknowledge that racism and xenophobia taint the arguments you're making, even if you yourself are not racist or xenophobic. It's hard to stand up for a view when it is held by people who are widely reviled, and I suspect that courage is something our country needs more of. However, I think the examples I provided compellingly demonstrate that issues of legality do not sit at the core of the ant…

I can't speak for Trump's attack on the judiciary. He's barking up the wrong tree there, and did little to help his case. It will likely be left for SCOTUS to decide, as should be the case; judges shouldn't be cowed by politicians to change their rulings.

We do disagree about the point about the sanctity of law. IMO selective enforcement (engagement/detainment directives for the Border Patrol) and the implicit support of "sanctuary cities" seem to encourage the violation of immigration law. I think it is specifically the former that gave rise to groups like the Minutemen.

As for carrying water for despicable people...well, so be it. I happen to think that, as with any group, most are reasonable folks of decent character but often overshadowed by the extremists and attention-seekers in their midst -- an argument, I'm happy to point out, also made in the defense of foreign individuals who come to this country under less-than-legal circumstances.

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