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Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

latimes.com

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Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#21

Post by pmccool »

lidmith wrote: post #20
stretchwithme wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jeez, I have probably worked with a lot of people who have divisive controversial views diametrically opposed to my own. who cares! The immature, overly political people on the team, that's who! I don't agree, though, that this is a violation of his free speech rights. He can still speak. Its more a violation of his employment agreement, if anything at all.

I have to disagree with "I don't agree, though, that this is a violation of his free speech rights. He can still speak." Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have vocal cords. It means you are free from reprisal for your speech. This was a government appointment, and the story says that the DOE confirmed that the reason for his removal was because of his writings. So, the DOE punished him, by removing him from thi…

Freedom of speech doesn't typically imply no fear of reprisals from employers; why should it in this case?

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#22

Post by brg »

lutorm wrote: post #17
mturmon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a good summary of the team Steven Chu, himself a Nobelist, appointed: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/05/mission_im... Note that Katz is called the "What am I doing here" person. And note, the above summary piece was posted in advance of those writings coming out. I think the real issue is, why did Chu ask Katz to join the team in the first place? He's really not got the same track record as the…

Sometimes it's good to pick people who are experts in related fields but with no direct knowledge of the issue -- it's a source of unbiased ideas that can be valuable. My impression is that that's the whole idea behind this JASON team, to bring together people from various fields of science who all bring their particular viewpoint to a problem. It's the whole idea behind the word "interdisciplinary"...

Exactly.

Why was Feynman on the Roger's commission? QED has little to do with rocket science.

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#23

Post by savant »

halostatue wrote: post #15
savant wrote: post #13

It's disappointing at a time like this that when all Americans need to come together and focus on relief efforts and recovery efforts in the Gulf, someone in power decides a person's divisive position on an issue affects his ability to focus on a problem.

If it affects other people's ability to work with him, it matters.

I don't see why it would. I go to work and I talk about stupid stuff with my coworkers all the time. They definitely don't have much in common with me, and it's an even larger gap between me and the founders. Even so, I manage to do my job and hopefully do it well, regardless of what they thought of my peach/orange/pink hair last week.

There just happens to be this little thing called professionalism....

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#24

Post by lidmith »

pmccool wrote: post #21
lidmith wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with "I don't agree, though, that this is a violation of his free speech rights. He can still speak." Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have vocal cords. It means you are free from reprisal for your speech. This was a government appointment, and the story says that the DOE confirmed that the reason for his removal was because of his writings. So, the DOE punished him, by removing him from thi…

Freedom of speech doesn't typically imply no fear of reprisals from employers; why should it in this case?

In essence, it comes down to government use of power. Private companies may discriminate based on beliefs, because the positions they offer are not created by use of force, whereas all government positions are.

Put in a concrete, extreme example, consider if all teaching positions across the US required a statement of belief (say, in god). This would clearly be a violation of the establishment clause (really, tied to freedom of speech, but you could make another example that is more closely linked to the current situation). However, if some private catholic school required its teachers to believe in god, that would not be a violation, because the constitution binds the government, not private individuals or groups.

So, in a clear answer to your question, "why should it in this case?", it should because the constitution is a set of rules for the government to act upon, not for private companies.

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#26

Post by mturmon »

lutorm wrote: post #17
mturmon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a good summary of the team Steven Chu, himself a Nobelist, appointed: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/05/mission_im... Note that Katz is called the "What am I doing here" person. And note, the above summary piece was posted in advance of those writings coming out. I think the real issue is, why did Chu ask Katz to join the team in the first place? He's really not got the same track record as the…

Sometimes it's good to pick people who are experts in related fields but with no direct knowledge of the issue -- it's a source of unbiased ideas that can be valuable. My impression is that that's the whole idea behind this JASON team, to bring together people from various fields of science who all bring their particular viewpoint to a problem. It's the whole idea behind the word "interdisciplinary"...

In the days when Sussman was a novice Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe." "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play." Minsky shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?", Sussman asked his teacher. "So the room will be empty." At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

My point: not to confuse "no preconceptions" with "not much directly usable knowledge." Look at the resumes of the people on the team. You've got the head of one of the premier research institutions in the nation (Sandia), a national medal of science winner who has consulted about the Kuwait oil well disaster, a robotics engineer, and a petroleum engineer. And an astrophysicist.

About Feynman, remember, he was a Nobelist and widely understood, when he was appointed, to be the most brilliant physicist of the latter half of the 20th century. His university (Caltech) runs a NASA facility, JPL, where his sister and a lot of his colleagues worked.

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#27

Post by eavc »

Let's be clear about what he said in his blog that's so inflammatory.

Essentially, he said that gay people are morally culpable for AIDS, and that the monogamous gay people are culpable because they belong to the same group much how people belonging to the KKK are to blame even if they aren't the exact person committing violence.

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#28

Post by darkhorse »

wow, lots of homophobe-apologists masquerading as free speech crusaders here tonight.

it doesn't take a genius to realize that:

a) having a lightning-rod homophobe/bigot on the team will turn into a PR nightmare and result in a media circus

b) it'd be better to not have such a circus and focus on the important stuff

c) removing the bigot puts this problem behind you so you can focus on the task at hand

furthermore, $50 says this guy is a self-hating closet homo. wait for it....

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#29

Post by yummyfajitas »

mturmon wrote: post #11
billpaetzke wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He entered the project based on aptitude and left based on politics. That's why it's unsettling.

Here's a good summary of the team Steven Chu, himself a Nobelist, appointed: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/05/mission_im... Note that Katz is called the "What am I doing here" person. And note, the above summary piece was posted in advance of those writings coming out. I think the real issue is, why did Chu ask Katz to join the team in the first place? He's really not got the same track record as the…

Actually, they all seem to be "what am I doing here" people. Three are nuclear engineers of varying sorts, one does superconductivity (also military stuff, including nuclear weapons), one does nanotechnology. Only George Cooper seems to have any remotely relevant expertise; he studies drilling into rocks.

The main difference between the Katz and the rest is that Katz admitted he has no expertise. He's a very smart guy, but he sure doesn't know how to play politics.

Re: Physics prof fired from oil spill cleanup job due to controversial blog.

#30

Post by pmccool »

lidmith wrote: post #24
pmccool wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech doesn't typically imply no fear of reprisals from employers; why should it in this case?

In essence, it comes down to government use of power. Private companies may discriminate based on beliefs, because the positions they offer are not created by use of force, whereas all government positions are. Put in a concrete, extreme example, consider if all teaching positions across the US required a statement of belief (say, in god). This would clearly be a violation of the establishment clause (really, tied to…

A set of rules for the government to act on in exercising powers peculiar to government, no?

Hence the historical importance of tenure for judges, for example. I assume his university position is likewise protected by academic tenure?

So I respectfully disagree. Whatever this is, it isn't a freedom of speech issue.

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