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The Closing of America

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Re: The Closing of America

#21
post #13

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

> Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He started his campaign with a pledge to "ban all muslims entering the US".[1] He has lied about seeing thousands of New Jerseyans celebrating 911. He has also said he "would certainly implement [a Muslim registry]"[1]. OK if you want to be pedantic, fine. No one but Trump knows if he truly hates Muslims. But his actions surely do encourage hate. > He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia…

This post is contributing to the problem because it is littered with half-truths designed to sway the conversation.

>He started his campaign with a pledge to "ban all muslims entering the US"

Half-truth. Trump isn't calling to "ban all muslims entering the US". Trump is calling for a shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. There is a difference between the two.

>He started his campaign with [this pledge]

Half-truth. Trump started his campaign in June 2015. He made his statements on Muslim immigration in December 2015. This pledge came later.

>He has lied about seeing thousands of New Jerseyans celebrating 911

Half-truth. Lying is “a false statement made with intent to deceive”. Without looking into Donald Trump's head, it's very difficult to show there is intent to deceive. The most likely explanation I've seen floating around, is Trump saw footage of Muslims celebrating the attacks on TV, and mistook those celebrating for being in New Jersey.

NPR elaborates on why it's hard to call this lying here: http://www.spin.com/2017/01/npr-news-wont-call-donald-trumps...

>He has also said he "would certainly implement [a Muslim registry][1]"

Half-truth. In the article you cited, the actual quote is "Oh I would certainly implement that. Absolutely." But in the article you cited, it describes how it's not clear what Trump's "that" refers to. In his earlier answer, he says "There should be a lot of systems, beyond database, we should have a lot of systems, and today you can do it... But right now we have to have a border, we have to have strength, we have to have a wall. And we cannot let what’s happening to this country happen". In Trump's view, his "that" may refer to "a lot of systems, beyond database" plus "a border, [having] strength, [having] a wall". But if "that" refers to the reporter's question 4 sentences earlier, then "that" would refer to "a database that tracks the Muslims in this country".

The article you cited backs up this ambiguity, saying:

"The remarks were made after a rally, and there was speculation by some on social media afterwards that Trump did not hear the entirety of the question, because he refers to the border in his answer."

So really, what "that" refers to is ambiguous.

> the San Bernardino attacked was carried out by a US citizen of Pakistani descent.

Half-truth. The San Bernardino attack was carried out by two people, one of whom was a US citizen of Pakistani descent. The other attacker was born in Pakistan and immigrated on a marriage visa to the U.S.

Re: The Closing of America

#22

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

The amount of effort it takes these days to build a truthful picture of the situation is exhausting. Depending on the source of the article I have to do anywhere from 3-5 different kinds of searches to confirm if the assertions are actually true. I've taken to flat out ignoring certain sites now due to an established practice of ideological dishonesty. Partisanship is now not a reason alone to disregard a source, eve…

To be fair, the Trump administration makes it difficult to do reporting agnostic to partisanship. The administration vilifies media outlets that maintain an unfavorable opinion of the administration's policies and interests, even when that opinion is based in fact and good governance. It seems to expect the pseudo-PR relationship the media often has with companies, and has hinted at not entertaining press interviews with media outlets that criticize the administration's policies.

Under such a climate where fact is scarce, it seems that partisanship would only exacerbate.

Re: The Closing of America

#23
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He started his campaign with a pledge to "ban all muslims entering the US".[1] He has lied about seeing thousands of New Jerseyans celebrating 911. He has also said he "would certainly implement [a Muslim registry]"[1]. OK if you want to be pedantic, fine. No one but Trump knows if he truly hates Muslims. But his actions surely do encourage hate. > He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia…

This post is contributing to the problem because it is littered with half-truths designed to sway the conversation. > He started his campaign with a pledge to "ban all muslims entering the US" Half-truth. Trump isn't calling to "ban all muslims entering the US". Trump is calling for a shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on . There is a differ…

>> The most likely explanation I've seen floating around, is Trump saw footage of Muslims celebrating the attacks on TV, and mistook those celebrating for being in New Jersey.

Yeah sure...

Re: The Closing of America

#24

I DESPISE being in the position to defend Trump, because he is an embarrassment and a buffoon, but the article is filled with half-facts, and is really disappointing, especially for the New York Times. Trump doesn't "hate Muslims." He banned Muslims from the known terrorist states. He didn't ban Muslims from Indonesia and Malaysia (the two most populous Muslim countries), and Pakistan. So if the author said "Trump ha…

Thanks for updating your comment to reflect the misquotes. However, even with the edit, it still on the whole misrepresents the editorial, or at least doesn't support its own claims. You've kept in the language regarding "twisting of words and half-truths", but no longer have anything supporting that view in your comment.

Elsewhere on HN you've made many comments regarding others furthering "fake news" by misrepresenting what's been said. If you're sincere about this, you need to do your utmost to do the same yourself. The spirit of wanting to have discussions on difficult topics is one I share, and it's very difficult with the polarizing atmosphere we currently reside in.

A couple of references I find useful to guide how I approach these types of conversations are

- Principle of Charity: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html

- Rapaport's Rules: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo...

I hope you might find something there to take away as well.

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