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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#21

Post by kristianc »

bostand wrote: post #17
DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/

The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#22

Post by geff82 »

Integrating all countries of eastern Europe at once and much too early was the beginning of the end. The countries that had been members before were getting so close economically and culturally that I think the current situation would not have been possible and a real united state might not have been only a dream. Politicians wanted too much and too early and did not take the population with them. I love my polish colleagues, but on a macro scale it did not really work.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#23

Post by alkonaut »

DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

That's the reason the Euro isn't working. The Eu and the Eurozone are different (although the difference will be smaller when/if the UK leaves)

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#24

Post by MarcusBrutus »

It most definitely is and it takes a very starry eyed sort of person to expect otherwise. The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union under the rule of an un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy of "commissioners" who rule by means of "directives" (you couldn't make it sound more soviet-y even if you tried) was beyond ludicrous from day 1. A modest trade union with some freedom of movement for qualified workers was achievable and maybe in the end it will settle to just that. In fact I think the soviety approach to building the whole thing ensured its demise. Diverse people can collaborate productively and profitably under win-win free market arrangements. But in the EU system there's too many zero-sum games being constantly played and decided on a purely political level (rather than by market forces) and that creates a lot of bad blood pretty quickly. The reluctance of Germans to bail out southern Europeans is just an instance of that.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#25

Post by ComradeTaco »

muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

I see an overall trend of of authoritarianism and nationalism as a response to immigration and an increasingly changing world. There's also a pretty heavy streak of anti-intellectualism as voters were encouraged to fundamentally reject experts that gave (IMHO well-founded) warnings about the ill-effects of Brexit and Trump.

In short: Nationalism in, Globalism out.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#26

Post by yellow_viper »

mpweiher wrote: post #3

No. Pro EU sentiment increased markedly in pretty much all of Europe post-Brexit[1], and hopefully national politicians will stop playing the silly "do bad/unpopular things and then blame them on the EU"-game. This game was thought to be without cost, now it is clear that it is not, and the ones who played it most extensively are paying the biggest price. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/08/brexit-cause…

Yes anti-EU rhetoric went down post-Brexit. But it's still very high, and will likely continue to rise once Brexit is settled. It's clear

>and hopefully national politicians will stop

They won't.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#27

Post by DrNuke »

bostand wrote: post #17
DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

You are speaking of a big Germany master state here, not the European Union whose foundational goal was to avoid wars and live in harmony.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#28

Post by gambiting »

akjainaj wrote: post #6
Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Living in one of the PIGS, I can tell there's not much going on here about leaving the EU. Nobody has seriously brought it up. That said, I see important problems in the EU going on now that must be solved: 1. I know the EU is completely against the "two-speed Europe". But that MUST be put in place if the EU is to survive. There's a clear divide between regions in the EU. It is a cultural divide in the way work is se…

>>The EU is literally shoving immigrants down people's throats. Immigration from A8 countries MUST be regulated (end of Schengen)

This attitude saddens me - regulation would most likely mean that I would need to get a visa to stay where I am, where I work and where I pay my taxes, which is not how I imagined EU. Just a few years ago, I felt "at home" wherever I went, who cared which nationality you were, you could walk into a government office in Germany, Spain, UK, France, and you would be treated the same as a local citizen. Now? It seems like we are becoming 2nd category citizens, despite the only difference between being a "foreigner" and "natural citizen" is the label on my passport.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#29

Post by bostand »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

> everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU

Exactly what kind of people did you talk to? I visited Paris after Brexit and outside some groups on the far right everyone where laughing at the crazy brittons...

Many in Germany and France consider UK hindering advancement in EU, and consider the Brexit a god send

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#30

Post by adrinavarro »

powertower wrote: post #4

edit: -deleted- this thread has been moved from the front-page, back 5 pages. There is no point making (nor leaving) good arguments in dead threads that no one can see nor take part in.

Huh? It's about creating an identity, a single market, and in the process, creating peace. I don't feel it is attempting to destroy national identity, if anything, it allows it to thrive (as long as it is compatible with the EU idea). Same goes with individual and national rights. EU policy provides a common framework, and if anything, it only overpowers states in favour of its citizens (see ECJ).
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