Live data from Hacker News

China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

bbc.com

21–30 of 184 posts

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#21

They need to go further and ban any and all exotic animal trade for the quackery medicine and delicacy markets.

They do. For example, Pangolins are at the brink of extinction (they are actually the most trafficked mammal on the planet) mostly because they are considered a delicacy in China. A friend of mine is running a website called Poaching Facts (http://www.poachingfacts.com/) if you want to learn more. Here's for example his article on sales of bear parts http://www.poachingfacts.com/faces-of-the-poachers/buyers-of...

Vice also did a short documentary on it

https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/the-most-trafficked-mamma...

The situation is exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't seem like the willingness to put a stop to this is universal among the members of the Chinese govt http://www.voanews.com/a/report-china-presidential-delegatio...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#22
You should also check out https://reddit.com/r/babyelephantgifs. We just finished a fundraiser for David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust (an elephant orphanage in Kenya) in collaboration with the UK branch of the organization. But you can still donate!

https://www.reddit.com/r/babyelephantgifs/comments/5gm1pl/he...

DSWT even made a special video for this fundraiser https://www.youtube.com/embed/ogJprDLQFl8

Just check out for example this little orphan https://www.instagram.com/p/BOi9KfJDSKz/

The situation is really bad, if the next 10 years are as bad as the last 10, elephants will be basically extinct in the wild. This will have wide reaching consequences as elephants are keystone species which means that they are extremely important for their environment. If they go away, ecosystems will collapse which will cause further unrests in the general region.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140114-elephants-the-fores...

Furthermore, money poured into the black market tends to end up in the wrong hands (read terrorist groups) http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tracking-ivory/article.htm...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#23
post #13

What will happen to the people who hunt/trade ivory. Specifically, those who live in villages and depend on it as a source of income. Will there be assistance to wean them off elephant hunting. I hope they get new skills and do not poach other animals.

This is like saying, in response to a crackdown on mugging, "I hope the muggers get the assistance they need to get new skills and not move on to other crimes." I'd prefer if the poachers actually all got arrested, and got new skills breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.

Your line of thinking is why the "War on Drugs" is a failure. If you think people want to hunt elephants, deal drugs, or mug for a living, you haven't thought hard enough on the socioeconomic problem that plagues the poor.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#25
post #9

OK... how about rhino horn? Compared to rhinos, elephants are in zero danger. Not defending poachers, but this is the wrong thing to prioritize. (Also cheetahs, and probably a lot of other species)

> Compared to rhinos, elephants are in zero danger.

Elephants are definitely NOT in zero danger. Certain species of Rhino are definitely virtually extinct (for example, there are only three known remaining specimen of the Northern white rhino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_white_rhinoceros) but elephants are in a pretty bad shape too. If the next 10 years are as bad as the last 10, they will be virtually extinct in the wild.

Furthermore, IIRC, the biggest consumer of illegal rhino horn isn't China but Vietnam.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#26
post #5

How is this hacker news?

There's definitely a lot of possible technological solutions to this.

https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/the_us...

http://qz.com/797996/a-combination-of-machine-learning-and-g...

USC even has a whole research group at the Viterbi School of Engineering dedicated to using technology to deal with poaching

http://teamcore.usc.edu/people/feifang/crime/

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#27
post #13

What will happen to the people who hunt/trade ivory. Specifically, those who live in villages and depend on it as a source of income. Will there be assistance to wean them off elephant hunting. I hope they get new skills and do not poach other animals.

This is like saying, in response to a crackdown on mugging, "I hope the muggers get the assistance they need to get new skills and not move on to other crimes." I'd prefer if the poachers actually all got arrested, and got new skills breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.

Reading material for you from the president of Columbia, citing the failures of the War on Drugs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/colombia-unite...

"“We need to provide social and economic alternatives to small growers of illegal crops and other vulnerable communities in order to create the necessary conditions to bring them back to legality,” wrote Santos in an opinion piece in the Observer."

And your analogy of the mugging is invalid. In mugging there's two parties, the mugger and the victim. The war on drugs is the closest analogy. It is an illegal trade, just like ivory. There's three parties. The grower, seller, and buyer.

If you do not get the grower, in this case, the ivory hunter, a legal path to providing food for their family, it will be a failure, just like the crackdown on cocaine for the last 30 years.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying, in response to a crackdown on mugging, "I hope the muggers get the assistance they need to get new skills and not move on to other crimes." I'd prefer if the poachers actually all got arrested, and got new skills breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.

Your line of thinking is why the "War on Drugs" is a failure. If you think people want to hunt elephants, deal drugs, or mug for a living, you haven't thought hard enough on the socioeconomic problem that plagues the poor.

The war on drugs comparison is really commonly compared with war on illegal wildlife, however the two differ pretty drastically once you stop thinking of them as just "bans on things". For example, the prevention strategies for these two are vastly different. Furthermore,

a.) There are legal drugs and substances that can be used to manufacture illegal drugs. You cannot fully outlaw these, unlike wildlife animal products.

b.) IIRC the vast majority of illegal wildlife products come to the US (and US is large consumer of illegal wildlife products) via ships (as opposed to by plane or truck) and is only a handful of ports that need to be secured. There is like an infinite number of potential access points for drugs. And even if you succeed 100% in preventing smuggling attempts, you will still have domestic manufacturers.

c.) The reason why the two are banned are really different to. With wildlife poaching, the damage is done during the "manufacturing" of the products, whereas with drugs it's mostly the consumption and trade that cause the damage.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#29
post #9

OK... how about rhino horn? Compared to rhinos, elephants are in zero danger. Not defending poachers, but this is the wrong thing to prioritize. (Also cheetahs, and probably a lot of other species)

I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this since my startup, Pembient, biofabricates rhino horn. Basically, rhino horn has been banned in China since 1993. Despite that prohibition, much rhino horn still ends up in China, where it is used primarily for decorative purposes and not medicinal purposes as is widely reported [1].

From a policy perspective, bans often don't work because they induce a "forbidden fruit" effect [2]. Or, in the words of Walter Lippmann [3]:

"We find ourselves revolving in a circle of impotence in which we outlaw intolerantly the satisfaction of certain persistent human desires and then tolerate what we have prohibited. Thus we find ourselves accepting in their lawless forms the very things which in lawful form we repudiate, having in the end to deal not only with all the vices we intended to abolish but with the additional dangers which arise from having turned over their exploitation to the underworld."

It is especially strange seeing wildlife policy push further towards a "war on drugs" stance at the same time that many are claiming that war has been lost [4].

It will be interesting to see how things play out, but I believe policy in this area is fundamentally flawed and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Hopefully, the animals will survive our blundering.

[1] https://wildlifejustice.org/cn/overlooked-rhino-horn-demand-...

[2] http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=33...

[3] http://www.unz.org/Pub/Forum-1931feb-00065

[4] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/war-on-drugs-legaliza...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#30
post #9

OK... how about rhino horn? Compared to rhinos, elephants are in zero danger. Not defending poachers, but this is the wrong thing to prioritize. (Also cheetahs, and probably a lot of other species)

I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this since my startup, Pembient, biofabricates rhino horn. Basically, rhino horn has been banned in China since 1993. Despite that prohibition, much rhino horn still ends up in China, where it is used primarily for decorative purposes and not medicinal purposes as is widely reported [1]. From a policy perspective, bans often don't work because they induce a "forbidden fruit" effe…

I was wandering as well if the ban won't drive the price up even more, just like the Prohibition did with alcohol.
Post reply on HN