What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble • Hacker News Board

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#21

Post by Fnoord » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 12:40 PM UTC

gcatalfamo wrote: post #2

Everybody is claiming that the focus on fitness is what drives smartwatches purchases, and pebble was just too late to it. Is it just me that stopped looking into smartwatches because they became too fitness oriented? I loved the focus on productivity and having a watch becoming slower because it had to track an increasing number of health metrics I couldn't care less of actually killed it for me.

> Is it just me that stopped looking into smartwatches because they became too fitness oriented?

What would really matter is some kind of market research. Did Pebble do those? Or did they just follow Apple/Fitbit and bet on the wrong horse? Did they bet on the wrong horse?

> I loved the focus on productivity and having a watch becoming slower because it had to track an increasing number of health metrics I couldn't care less of actually killed it for me.

You appear to assume the two are mutually exclusive. You know you can put off the fit part of the Pebble?

As for the article, the graph backs up what I concluded reading the previous threads:

1) The Pebbles were relatively cheap with low profit margin. (early Kickstarter adopters got the device a bit cheaper than the final price)

2) Pebble did not yield enough volume in sales.

3) People don't buy a new Pebble every year.

4) No resale value (like Apple devices do have).

Add to that

5) Profit margins are much higher for expensive, luxury products.

6) Not deep enough pockets to sustain (other companies have their smartwatch dept on 'life support').

7) Due to its immaturity the smartwatch cannot replace the smartphone as of yet, nor can any other portable device of similar size (ie. a "Google Glass").

8) A perceived 'fitness' niche puts the smartwatch in the position of complimenting the smartphone instead of replacing it. This is only short term beneficial.

9) Is there even a market for a low power, high uptime (juice-wise) smartwatch? Do customers complain they need to refuel every day? How important is it? I'd like to compare this to the zealotry Apple put in size of the MBP, sacrificing horsepower (RAM, battery power, ability to replace hardware such as RAM/battery/SSD) and the quality of the keyboard. This while they already had a brand where size mattered over horsepower; the Air.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#22

Post by camtarn » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 1:09 PM UTC

rhaps0dy wrote: post #7

gcatalfamo wrote: post #2

Everybody is claiming that the focus on fitness is what drives smartwatches purchases, and pebble was just too late to it. Is it just me that stopped looking into smartwatches because they became too fitness oriented? I loved the focus on productivity and having a watch becoming slower because it had to track an increasing number of health metrics I couldn't care less of actually killed it for me.

What productivity thing would you use a smartwatch for? I got a Pebble as a hackathon prize and tried to use it for a while, but I wasn't able to find a use for it that I didn't already do with my smartphone, which you must take with you anyways if you have a Pebble. So I'm really curious.

I bought an original Pebble and wore it 24/7 for a while, tracking my sleep. What I found amusing was that I didn't find the sleep tracking all that useful, nor the notifications and apps - but having a very small LED torch on my wrist which lit up with a wrist-flick was incredibly useful when quietly navigating a dark apartment at night!

If I were building my own smartwatch, I'd give it a bright gesture-activated LED light aimed at my fingers.

In general though, I liked the Pebble, but didn't find it useful. I gave it to my partner, who's a horticulturist and spends a lot of time up to his wrists in soil - he loved it because it let him figure out which notifications were important enough to clean off his hands and pull out his phone, and which could be ignored.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#23

Post by kensai » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 1:16 PM UTC

I think Pebble's CEO simply screwed the moment of selling. He should have sold to Citizen for almost 10x the value a year before. He did not. He burned his cash in the process of making another product.

It was a textbook CEO mistake.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#24

Post by tpp » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 2:28 PM UTC

gcatalfamo wrote: post #2

Everybody is claiming that the focus on fitness is what drives smartwatches purchases, and pebble was just too late to it. Is it just me that stopped looking into smartwatches because they became too fitness oriented? I loved the focus on productivity and having a watch becoming slower because it had to track an increasing number of health metrics I couldn't care less of actually killed it for me.

Agree! IMHO, today smart watches are expensive fitness trackers. Rest all marketed is just meh.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#25

Post by krrrh » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

stevewillows wrote: post #13

rhaps0dy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I found it perfect for meetings where I didn't want the client to feel like I was tight on time or rushing things, even if I had to. Ah, this seems good. Socially acceptable information-checking. I'll keep this in mind as a use for smartwatches, even though I don't need it (yet?). >It seems silly, but the multiple timers were especially useful for cooking large dinners. You could also set the phone on a surface some…

The vibration is the key for me. I first got the Pebble because I wanted to know who was calling or texting me while I was on my bike around town. Over the next few years the other features became part of my daily habits. Simple things like responding to texts with canned messages (e.g. 'Ten minutes away' or 'I'll call you in five') allowed me to take a relaxing ride without stressing about missing an important call…

A subtle point here for me was that I found the vibration of the Pebble v.1 to still be rather loud and to draw the attention of anyone near me to my wrist. It's rarely mentioned, but I think the biggest feature upgrade when I moved on to the Apple Watch was how subtle the "tap" vibration was. It means that I am unfailingly aware of a notification, timer, or alarm firing, and a person I am in conversation with is never aware that it happened. The ability for it to deliver different patterns of taps is also nice, for instance, turn left or turn right are recognizably different tap patterns when using the watch for navigation.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#26

Post by pluma » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

gcatalfamo wrote: post #2

Everybody is claiming that the focus on fitness is what drives smartwatches purchases, and pebble was just too late to it. Is it just me that stopped looking into smartwatches because they became too fitness oriented? I loved the focus on productivity and having a watch becoming slower because it had to track an increasing number of health metrics I couldn't care less of actually killed it for me.

I'd go one step further: the pivot to fitness is what killed Pebble.

Pebble's first KS campaign resulted in $10MM in pledges. The second campaign resulted in $20MM. The third campaign resulted in $10MM.

The second campaign revamped the interface and added capabilities for voice input and other "productivity" features. The third campaign added a heartrate monitor, more fitness features and the Core, a separate device specifically targeted at runners.

Also, Pebble only started bleeding money in 2015, which would presumably be when the pivot to fitness started. Pebble had lost the "innovation" advantage to Apple (and the various Android Wear devices that had sprung up before) but had evidently carved out its own highly successful niche.

It's the typical startup problem: they were brilliant at one thing and all their users loved them, but that was too small a niche to justify their investments so they had to expand or pivot and died in the ocean instead of succeeding as a big fish in a small pond.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#27

Post by sfifs » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

I really wonder if fitness is a big market. The size of Soda and fast food giants vs. "fitness food" indicates it's a niche industry.

Seems to me that the real issueay be the technology is not good enough/fast enough to provide a seamless substitute to watch/phone functions and the fitness people are really the early adopters who are willing to trade off quirky tech for their niche needs being met

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#28

Post by djrogers » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

stevewillows wrote: post #19

krzrak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I found it perfect for meetings where I didn't want the client to feel like I was tight on time or rushing things, even if I had to. It's funny to read that, because in my culture looking at your watch is a sign of "let's finish" or "I'm in a hurry", while briefly looking at the phone is perfectly acceptable. But I admit, that people with smartwatches confuse me from time to time, when they look at their watch freq…

that's the beauty of the vibration. You don't need to look at your watch to get a fifteen minute warning (or whatever you've set it to). The buzz is silent to others, but enough that you'll recognize it.

In my experience, the only silent 'buzz' is from my apple watch - and that's probably because it's not a buzz. My pebble and martian watches both had loud, obnoxious vibrations that were no better in many quiet situations than a beep would have been.

Apple's decision to put so much work in to the 'taptic engine' was a smart one IMHO - wearing any other smart watch now feels like having a moto razr strapped to my wrist when it vibrates.

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#29

Post by neumann » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #20

stevewillows wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same boat as you. I love my Pebbles, but the lack of good basic apps was always a struggle. I use PowerNoter to pull to do lists from Evernote, which is fine -- but not always reliable. It's a shame to see them go. Everyone I know with Pebbles love them, but they tend to be more technical users who wouldn't get stressed over a few bugs. All I really want from a smart watch are: - notifications (of my choos…

The Pebble Classic v1 did not ship with a lot of functionality for notifications, music and alarm (I remember needing Music Boss for a while), but later on I got all three working (it was permission related). The notifications can be customised. Firmware also did extend such features at the price of less uptime (mine went from 7 to about 3 days). The lack of a to-do app is a huge one for me. Why? Because the use case…

There is a keep for pebble that was developed for a while [0]. The developer released the source code, so perhaps it can be modified to work with a custom note API. It still works for me on the original pebble with latest firmware and shopping is the primary reason I still use it.

There is also WatchNote [1] (no longer developed) and Infinite Notes [2].

[0] https://forums.pebble.com/t/android-root-keep-for-pebble-dis... [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.geekasmus.w... [2] https://infnotes.hern.as/#/

Re: What Hardware startups can learn from Pebble

#30

Post by neumann » Sat, Dec 17, 2016, 6:34 PM UTC

rhaps0dy wrote: post #7

gcatalfamo wrote: post #2

Everybody is claiming that the focus on fitness is what drives smartwatches purchases, and pebble was just too late to it. Is it just me that stopped looking into smartwatches because they became too fitness oriented? I loved the focus on productivity and having a watch becoming slower because it had to track an increasing number of health metrics I couldn't care less of actually killed it for me.

What productivity thing would you use a smartwatch for? I got a Pebble as a hackathon prize and tried to use it for a while, but I wasn't able to find a use for it that I didn't already do with my smartphone, which you must take with you anyways if you have a Pebble. So I'm really curious.

Productivity wise it was mainly good at prioritizing incoming information and calendars.

You can set the pebble to only notify on emails from a particular filter/tag/sender which was great for alerting you to time sensitive emails in meetings and the lab when your hands are full.

Ditto for calendar alerts.

Customizable canned messages were great for this as well.