Live data from Hacker News

Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

nytimes.com

21–30 of 132 posts

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#21
post #3

Betteridge's law of headlines: Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word 'no'.

Agreed. Evolution doesn't even have a purpose, let alone a higher one. Also, fusion doesn't have a purpose, nor does gravity.

Also agree.

This is a disguised theological idea. I guess some weak version, where god is not in charge of moving each atom, god only makes some initial setup and give a purpose to everything. Replacing god with aliens doesn't make it scientific or more sensible.

This is the power of the Ockham's razor. Just assume no god and no aliens and not whatever. How far can you get with this? Is there an experiment where the no god/alien/whaterver hypothesis fails?

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#22
post #16

Do you think it's reasonable that conversations like this are fine on HN, but anytime I bring up Christian thought on the matter I am pressured to "not talk religion"? Wrestling with these top shelf Maslow's questions like "why am I/we here?", "what is the meaning of life" and other big life questions are common among all of us. So why the willingness to conjecture that (we live in a simulation | aliens may have seed…

I guess part of it is what to do with a religious claim.

If you say: "God created us all", that's fair, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go from there. I can either agree with you or disagree, but I can't really discuss it.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#23
post #10

Both the Intelligent Alien and Simulation ideas just push the question of 'purpose' up a level. Sure, the aliens may have a purpose, but if they are themselves a cosmological purposeless accident then by extension it's arguable that so are we.

> Both the Intelligent Alien and Simulation ideas just push the question of 'purpose' up a level They do, but while the 'kid in his garage running the simulation' may have no purpose, I guess the article author is suggesting that in a simulation our 'purpose' is to let the experiment play out and entertain this transcendental 'kid'.

Right, but what gives the purpose created by the garage-kid any sway? What gives garage-kid the authority to set my purpose? Creating something doesn't automatically mean our purpose is what the creator says it is; I think most people don't subscribe to the belief that kids should always do whatever their parents think is important once they are adults.

So in the end, what does it mean if the garage-kid created us to entertain him? Am I bound by that purpose? Does it somehow give my life more meaning?

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#25
Well duh.

Yes I realize that comment seems "trite"

What is it that the genome is doing. Look around and see how it is expressing itself.

I'm not a huge fan of Dawkins recently after he went a bit nuts on the whole atheism thing. Not because of the atheism thing but because it distracted him from what he was really about.

The genome is expressing itself, and it is way more than selfish. That thing is regression analysis to a large power. Constantly calculating minimal cost to self preservation and better versions of itself. We can learn a lot.

Personally I think its whole purpose is to build its own God. And the next God and the next... and it is doing it.

(I am a "classical" atheist)

Down votes or up votes, please explain.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#26

Well, if time is somehow "leaky", if the barrier between future and present is not absolutely, 100% impenetrable, then it's quite a distinct possibility that a future superintelligence would meddle into the affairs of its own past, perhaps with the goal of enabling its own existence. Both general relativity and quantum mechanics seem to suggest that time is not perfectly linear (GR) and not perfectly crisp or perfect…

You may enjoy "the end of eternity" by asimov

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#27
post #16

Do you think it's reasonable that conversations like this are fine on HN, but anytime I bring up Christian thought on the matter I am pressured to "not talk religion"? Wrestling with these top shelf Maslow's questions like "why am I/we here?", "what is the meaning of life" and other big life questions are common among all of us. So why the willingness to conjecture that (we live in a simulation | aliens may have seed…

In order for discussion to have any meaning, the things we claim have to be 'falsifiable'; there has to be SOME observable consequence of a claim being either true or false, even if we aren't able to currently observe it.

So, for religious discussions, what can we possibly discuss? Take any religious claim, and when we ask 'What observation could you make that would demonstrate to you that the claim is false?', the answer is almost always nothing. At that point, what is the use of discussion?

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#28

Both the Intelligent Alien and Simulation ideas just push the question of 'purpose' up a level. Sure, the aliens may have a purpose, but if they are themselves a cosmological purposeless accident then by extension it's arguable that so are we.

I did my thesis on the argument from design post-Darwin.

A lot of interesting discussion centers on how to reconcile the generalized principle of mediocrity with the apparently low probability of a life-supporting universe existing (in terms of how fine-tuned basic constants have to be for it to happen). Some people try to end-run around this with anthropic arguments (which better writers than myself have pointed out are fallacious when applied this way); others try to build on QM and a many-worlds approach to posit that a universe like ours is possible and thus must exist (and in fact a large number of them, similar but each slightly different, must exist). And some turn not to the Judeo-Christian literal-biblical-reading everything-created-in-six-days idea of "God", but to the general idea that our universe might be the product of intelligence.

And a lot of that work focuses on simulation arguments, which solve the seemingly-improbable "tuning" of our universe's physical constants by saying that they were in fact tuned by some intelligence for a particular purpose. That purpose need not be to produce us, or anything resembling us (perhaps we are simply a side effect of a set of constants that produce some other result that's actually of interest to the simulators), and might be as banal as "to see what happens when you plug in these values for the constants", but the purpose would nonetheless exist.

There's also a line of reasoning which comes out of that and says that once such a capability exists, suddenly our own universe does not appear so unlikely. All it takes is one universe, somewhere, with constants providing the ability to simulate other universes (which is more general and thus more likely than constants providing the specific configuration of our own universe), and you get to add not just simulations running in that universe, but simulations running in simulations running in simulations... and so on all the way down. At which point the number of universes which exist and support intelligent life grows dramatically, possibly even rivaling the number of universes which exist and do not support intelligent life.

Though on a completely different tack there are people who've run with the idea that singularities fire off big bangs of their own, producing new universes not visible from ours, and posited a kind of natural selection principle based on that: universes which give rise to singularities will have more "offspring", so universes which give rise to singularities should be more common than universes which don't. And since one easy way to get singularities is through organized clumping of matter which can then undergo gravitational collapse, and that same thing is what allows us to exist, it's not so unlikely to see our universe.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Evolution doesn't even have a purpose, let alone a higher one. Also, fusion doesn't have a purpose, nor does gravity.

Also agree. This is a disguised theological idea. I guess some weak version, where god is not in charge of moving each atom, god only makes some initial setup and give a purpose to everything. Replacing god with aliens doesn't make it scientific or more sensible. This is the power of the Ockham's razor. Just assume no god and no aliens and not whatever. How far can you get with this? Is there an experiment where the…

I don't see how it's a disguised theological idea, yet you're turning it into one and then arguing against that. It's an argument for a process being treated as an agent even if it's blind. The disagreement there is more philosophical (I currently don't know why most people seem to believe that blind agency is not valid, I imagine it's related to beliefs in free will at some level) and not at all theological, at least, from my perspective.

If anything, gods were likely created to make various observed processes more understandable by giving them agency without going through a bunch of philosophical hoops. I would say that's very reasonable. A lot more reasonable than pretending that the process does nothing and poises no danger.

Re: Can Evolution Have a ‘Higher Purpose’?

#30
post #16

Do you think it's reasonable that conversations like this are fine on HN, but anytime I bring up Christian thought on the matter I am pressured to "not talk religion"? Wrestling with these top shelf Maslow's questions like "why am I/we here?", "what is the meaning of life" and other big life questions are common among all of us. So why the willingness to conjecture that (we live in a simulation | aliens may have seed…

I guess part of it is what to do with a religious claim. If you say: "God created us all", that's fair, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere to go from there. I can either agree with you or disagree, but I can't really discuss it.

And yet this article points out that these other notions are equivalent to saying god made it. It's OK for elon musk to think we are a simulation created by someone, but not on to say "religion". I found Musk's idea equally stupid for that very reason. May as well say the universe is on a turtles back. But what's that turtle standing on? It's turtles all the way down.
Post reply on HN