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Linux on the Mac – state of the union

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Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#21

Post by dispose13432 »

WWLink wrote: post #14
matt4077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from being wrong, that narrative doesn't even make sense as an intro to this article: the criticism was directed at the new MBP hardware – so why would these super-professional uber-users buy it and then replace the OS? (Not to mention that, if I understood it correctly, Linux currently doesn't even support the keyboard, and is otherwise probably in its usual desktop mode of "WLAN, Sound, or functioning sleep –…

I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on.

>I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on.

I don't understand why would anyone not open-source their drivers?

What's NVIDIA's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon.

What's Intel's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon.

What's Samsung's secret sauce? Being able to put together great silicon.

So let's say tomorrow Nvidia open-sources all their drivers?

So now you know that which registers do you use to shade what. So now what's AMD going to do? Copy the interface?

It's already copied. Most users use standard OpenGL/DirectX to communicate with their board.

I mean look at Intel. You practically know what's what there. You can make an OS on (at least older) Intel chips without drivers.

Did it help anyone compete?

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#22

Post by School-Cotton »

WWLink wrote: post #14
matt4077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from being wrong, that narrative doesn't even make sense as an intro to this article: the criticism was directed at the new MBP hardware – so why would these super-professional uber-users buy it and then replace the OS? (Not to mention that, if I understood it correctly, Linux currently doesn't even support the keyboard, and is otherwise probably in its usual desktop mode of "WLAN, Sound, or functioning sleep –…

I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on.

"Blame" might be the wrong word since nobody involved with Linux has committed any moral failing here. It can certainly be analyzed as a drawback of the open-source model.

Microsoft has a lot of resources to incentivize hardware manufacturers to go to great lengths to make sure their drivers work well with Windows. No organization connected with "Desktop Linux" has that.

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#23

Post by augustl »

rocky1138 wrote: post #12

I wish to thank the dedicated people who make this happen. I'm forced to use Apple hardware at work, but thankfully can run whatever OS I choose. Here's to the crazy ones.

> Here's to the crazy ones.

That one hit home.. Based on my lack of options (Windows sucks, macOS is OK but the hardware sucks, Linux lacks a desktop ecosystem) I feel just like a crazy one, a misfit, the ones Apple addressed in that legendary ad.

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#24

Post by vacri »

dispose13432 wrote: post #21
WWLink wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on.

>I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on. I don't understand why would anyone not open-source their drivers? What's NVIDIA's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon. What's Intel's secret sauce? Being able to b…

As I understand it, Nvidia and AMD can't open-source their graphics drivers are parts of them are under third-party NDA.

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#25

Post by wyclif »

ubernostrum wrote: post #6
toodlebunions wrote: post #5

>>> "the realization that Apple no longer caters equally to casual and professional customers as it had in the past [YouTube video]. Instead, the company appears to be following an iOS-focused, margin-driven strategy that essentially relegates professionals to a fringe group." Ouch

Except this is largely based on mythology. People seem to equate "pro user" with "software developer" (and no other roles/occupations at all), and invent a fictitious history in which the Macbook Pro was jumping up and down on stage shouting "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" Except that never happened. The perceived dev-friendliness of the Macbook Pro was a historical accident: it turns out that when you build so…

That was then. But now that Apple does know that the MBP is perceived as dev-friendly, based on the type of people in that market segment that buy them, why would they let that slice of the market go?

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#26

Post by kagamine »

WWLink wrote: post #16
abritinthebay wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if we're sharing annecdata: literally everyone I know who works in audio would give up their Mac only on death. That covers several DJs, Producers, VO Artists, Audio Editors, and quite a few Sound Designers...

If we're sharing annecdata: Almost every programmer I know owns a Mac and loves it, and prefers working on them. Except me. My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one.

> My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one.

? Then what are you using?

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#27

Post by dispose13432 »

vacri wrote: post #24
dispose13432 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on. I don't understand why would anyone not open-source their drivers? What's NVIDIA's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon. What's Intel's secret sauce? Being able to b…

As I understand it, Nvidia and AMD can't open-source their graphics drivers are parts of them are under third-party NDA.

>As I understand it, Nvidia and AMD can't open-source their graphics drivers are parts of them are under third-party NDA.

OK, so the question is upstream. Why would Qualcomm, ARM, or any upstream care about people finding out the interface to their hardware?

What secrets are there in the drivers?

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#28

Post by kagamine »

drvdevd wrote: post #19
matt4077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from being wrong, that narrative doesn't even make sense as an intro to this article: the criticism was directed at the new MBP hardware – so why would these super-professional uber-users buy it and then replace the OS? (Not to mention that, if I understood it correctly, Linux currently doesn't even support the keyboard, and is otherwise probably in its usual desktop mode of "WLAN, Sound, or functioning sleep –…

Although I have experienced that choice on Apple hardware recently (2015 mbp retina), lately Linux seems to, let's say, 95% Just Work on non-apple x86 hardware for me, WLAN, sound, and suspend/resume. [edit] and this is with any distro, perhaps with more or less setup work

I find sleep/resume is successful when the proprietary driver is installed, nouveau isn't doing it doing it for me on Ubuntu derived 16.x distros (this month I have tried KDE Neon and Bodhi). The problem though, is that installing the drivers can be a pain. Last time I tried I soft bricked the PC and ended up doing a full reinstall to save time. As someone further down this thread said, what advantage is there these days in Nvidia not open-sourcing the drivers? They are still going to be selling the display cards.

The other problem for Linux I have encountered recently that burned through my free time was updateing the bios, there are no bios updates with Linux installers, which is annoying because the bios is update is OS agnostic. I had to create a bootable USB drive from a windows program (luckily I have a Windows PC for work) and boot from that. But the how-to guide from HP was lacking in details, and on one PC the program doesn't allow me to create the drive on one PC for use on another, so no bios update there.

The problems I have with Linux never seem to be to do with Linux, it is almost always hardware manufacturers being obstinate and refusing to share their toys with other adults.

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#29

Post by Someone »

dispose13432 wrote: post #27
vacri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Nvidia and AMD can't open-source their graphics drivers are parts of them are under third-party NDA.

>As I understand it, Nvidia and AMD can't open-source their graphics drivers are parts of them are under third-party NDA. OK, so the question is upstream. Why would Qualcomm, ARM, or any upstream care about people finding out the interface to their hardware? What secrets are there in the drivers?

One argument I've heard is that they fear patent lawsuits because it might give hints as to how their hardware works.

Re: Linux on the Mac – state of the union

#30

Post by coldtea »

drvdevd wrote: post #19
matt4077 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from being wrong, that narrative doesn't even make sense as an intro to this article: the criticism was directed at the new MBP hardware – so why would these super-professional uber-users buy it and then replace the OS? (Not to mention that, if I understood it correctly, Linux currently doesn't even support the keyboard, and is otherwise probably in its usual desktop mode of "WLAN, Sound, or functioning sleep –…

Although I have experienced that choice on Apple hardware recently (2015 mbp retina), lately Linux seems to, let's say, 95% Just Work on non-apple x86 hardware for me, WLAN, sound, and suspend/resume. [edit] and this is with any distro, perhaps with more or less setup work

>95% Just Work on non-apple x86 hardware for me

That has been the case for a decade or so now. 95% is not enough (for non-tinkerers)

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