I have my own theory about how life and entropy interrelate. I think total entropy in the universe starts at zero and will end at zero. This is because 'order' must be considered 'negative entropy'. As the universe evolves over time patterns in molecules and behaviors of molecules begin to occur. Starting with particles, atoms, molecules, compounds, planets, solar systems, galaxies, etc. Physics doesn't drive just ra…
What you describe is not your theory, it's pretty much conventional understanding of what life is in terms of thermodynamics -- a local capsule of low entropy. It's just that in formal treatment of thermodynamics, there is no negative entropy, there is just high entropy and low entropy. Also, the total entropy of the universe is largely irrelevant. This view is nothing new. What is new (or claimed to be new) about th…
A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
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Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#22Uhh - that is the basis for materialism. 'We are just particles' - essentially, ergo, we cannot be 'alive'. It's funny that Scientists have to figure this out, when it's the fundamental underlying presumption in their branch of metaphysics ... and frankly why we may very well be able to further refine/understand evolution in material terms, we cannot - by definition - explain 'life' in terms of materialist thinking ... because by definition it is excluded from existence. In materialism, we can really only have 'the appearance of life' or intelligence etc.. Materially, we are just a 'bunch of random noise'. Which is obviously an unfulfilling idea, but one which nevertheless rests at the root of science as we understand it today.
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#23How far back does evolution go? Is it the time the first cells were created? Or does it go even further back?
Evolution is not an entirely objective thing, really, it's the arbitrary theoretical line we draw around our observation of bags of random things bouncing around in a random environment. There is no 'process' per sey, other than somewhat arbitrary means we wish to use to describe it.
So the answer is: 'evolution goes back as far as you want it to' - depending on how you chose to define it :)
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Going further back, are planets and stars forming also part of evolution?
I would say no, because they are not self-replicating things. A part of the definition of living things is that they reproduce. That reproduction (with variation) is a necessary precursor to evolution. Stars and planets do not reproduce themselves, so they cannot be said to undergo selective evolution.
Kind of :).
We don't really have a definition for life.
Imagine an alien ship landed, and out popped these things. They said 'hey what's up' in their language. Cool. And as it turned out - they don't 'die' by natural causes, or reproduce. The pop out of some chemical process. It's a little creative, but physically plausible.
We could build 'mechanical wombs' fecundated with ovaries and sperm we farm. Is that reproduction? What if we are able to synthesize sperm and ovaries form scratch? 'Reproduction'? Depends on how you look at it I suppose :)
As the Scientist stated in the article, there really isn't a hard boundary between the living and non-living, because when you reduce our definitions down the level of physics, there is no distinction, at least materialist terms.
'Life' is something we observe, and give a name to, but because of the underlying assumption of materialist science (that the Universe is matter/energy bouncing around randomly) - it really doesn't have any real objectivity. You (or we, collectively) just define it to be what you (we) want it to be and that's it.
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#25“He is making me think that the distinction between living and nonliving matter is not sharp,” Uhh - that is the basis for materialism. 'We are just particles' - essentially, ergo, we cannot be 'alive'. It's funny that Scientists have to figure this out, when it's the fundamental underlying presumption in their branch of metaphysics ... and frankly why we may very well be able to further refine/understand evolution i…
Why can't life be that? Why the "just"? Needless romanticism
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#26How far back does evolution go? Is it the time the first cells were created? Or does it go even further back?
"How far back does evolution go?" Evolution is not an entirely objective thing, really, it's the arbitrary theoretical line we draw around our observation of bags of random things bouncing around in a random environment. There is no 'process' per sey, other than somewhat arbitrary means we wish to use to describe it. So the answer is: 'evolution goes back as far as you want it to' - depending on how you chose to defi…
I could describe throwing a ball to you into terms of how the quantum wavefunction evolves over time to produce the end state from the start state, and it would be a perfectly fine description, but for the sorts of things we do, usually a Newtonian physics level of description will do because we're generally concerned with coarse level details, not the momenta of each individual atom involved.
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
What you describe is not your theory, it's pretty much conventional understanding of what life is in terms of thermodynamics -- a local capsule of low entropy. It's just that in formal treatment of thermodynamics, there is no negative entropy, there is just high entropy and low entropy. Also, the total entropy of the universe is largely irrelevant. This view is nothing new. What is new (or claimed to be new) about th…
Thermodynamics states that in any closed system the entropy ALWAYS increases over time. I think this law works, but they need to stipulate that it's for situations where there is a begin-time and end-time (finite time range), but if you integrate entropy over all time (even in a closed system), you end up with a situation where the total area under the entropy curve is zero. In other words if you sort of 'remove' tim…
You left out a bit. If we take Wikipedia's definition (I know, I know):
> The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process.
As far as is currently known the laws of physics are time-reversible, which (ISTM, at least) would imply that the latter clause could very easily apply to the universe as a whole.
(There's also the issue of whether the universe itself is a closed system.)
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#28“He is making me think that the distinction between living and nonliving matter is not sharp,” Uhh - that is the basis for materialism. 'We are just particles' - essentially, ergo, we cannot be 'alive'. It's funny that Scientists have to figure this out, when it's the fundamental underlying presumption in their branch of metaphysics ... and frankly why we may very well be able to further refine/understand evolution i…
This strikes me as an entirely superfluous distinction. "just" random noise? What other kind of life is there..? Why can't life be that? Why the "just"? Needless romanticism
I'm reminding the commenter in the realm of materialism there really is no such thing as life, the universe is just a bunch of random noise including you and it.
If you think life exists you need something other than materialism, like spirituality etc..
It's an important paradox sitting right at the base of our rational world view that few realize exists.
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thermodynamics states that in any closed system the entropy ALWAYS increases over time. I think this law works, but they need to stipulate that it's for situations where there is a begin-time and end-time (finite time range), but if you integrate entropy over all time (even in a closed system), you end up with a situation where the total area under the entropy curve is zero. In other words if you sort of 'remove' tim…
> Thermodynamics states that in any closed system the entropy ALWAYS increases over time. You left out a bit. If we take Wikipedia's definition (I know, I know): > The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process. As far as is currently known the l…
And yes the definition of "universe" is something I define as "a closed system that doesn't interact with other systems", which is also a consistent definition even if the multiverse theory is correct. If two things interact then they are by definition in the same universe.
Re: A New Physics Theory of Life (2014)
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would say no, because they are not self-replicating things. A part of the definition of living things is that they reproduce. That reproduction (with variation) is a necessary precursor to evolution. Stars and planets do not reproduce themselves, so they cannot be said to undergo selective evolution.
"A part of the definition of living things is that they reproduce." Kind of :). We don't really have a definition for life. Imagine an alien ship landed, and out popped these things. They said 'hey what's up' in their language. Cool. And as it turned out - they don't 'die' by natural causes, or reproduce. The pop out of some chemical process. It's a little creative, but physically plausible. We could build 'mechanica…
For instance, crystals reproduce themselves, but we do not consider them living. So we decide that livings things use energy, which rules out crystals as being alive.
Fire reproduces itself, and it uses energy, but we don't consider it to be living, so we say that living systems preserve information http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=360 .
Viruses reproduce themselves-- in fact, using the same information-containing molecules that living cells do, DNA and RNA, but they do not use energy (instead they hijack the metabolic machinery of living cells). So we do not consider viruses alive.
So in various definitions of life, you will find criteria such as "uses energy" (has a metabolic process) and "transmits information" (in the form of DNA).
That we have defined such criteria does not mean we arbitrarily made up such distinctions. Human beings differentiated between mechanical and electromagnetic energy, or had the concept of "species", long before we had strict scientific definitions of these things. It is the same with living and non-living phenomena. The only difference is that we arrived at a chemo-physical definition of living much later than other phenomena.
Saying that life is not objectively real is nonsense. That's like saying there's no objective distinction between mechanical and radioactive energy. They're objectively different phenomena, in theory and in measurement. The ultimate conclusion of this line of reasoning is that any distinction between any thing or phenomenon is not objectively real, just a fancy of the mind (which you will find agreement on with Hindu and certain Buddhist philosophers).
Or perhaps you are actually claiming that rocks are alive? Or there really are no differences between a rock and a lichen? If there is no objective, "real" difference between living and non-living things, then a quartz crystal is actually alive (and perhaps conscious) like new-agers claim?
In the case of your aliens, I would argue they are intelligent, but not alive-- sort of like a robot or AI machine. Those aliens are like a side effect of that chemical process. (Unless they in turn re-created the chemical situation that they originate from-- but then of course, they would be reproducing, and thus, living things).
Your aliens aren't that different from if we sent drone robots that we created to aliens. Those drone robots aren't living, though they may be intelligent, and interact intelligently with the aliens. But they don't reproduce; they are a side effect of another living chemical process-- namely, human beings. Unless, of course, those drone robots managed to re-create themselves, or created humans which in turn replicated drone robots.
In the mechanical wombs thought experiment, we are still alive, because we are reproducing. Your mechanical womb is basically an artificial egg. A chicken is just an egg's way of making another egg, after all.
Would you consider a test-tube baby not to be alive?
A multicellular organism is epiphenomical of the cell, and the cell is epiphenomenal of the replicating DNA molecule. Life doesn't start with complex, conscious multicellular organisms like ourselves; it starts with simple, replicating molecules-- namely, DNA.