Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–27 of 27 posts

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#21

Post by nickik »

sqeaky wrote: post #9

The title implies the middle east was ever not torn apart. A quick glance through a history book shows it has always had more than its fair share of sectarian violence. It is resource starved and a major crossroads, why should we expect anything else without major effort to fix it?

You are implying that there was not 'a major effort' to 'fix it' yet.

And you are also implying that 'a major effort to fix it' would make us expect something new.

Both things are wrong. The US has been military active in middle east since almost 40 years (longer with the CIA). The US has major military bases all over the place, has invaded, bombed and fought wars with many countries, has supported one group or another in a civil conflict in all of them.

All of this was basically done because of the Carter Doctrine, the ME is a vital strategic area and its stability is very important to keep the oil flowing. How does this not qualify as a major effort?

What of all of this suggest to you that the US, or even a bigger international community could 'fix it' with a 'major effort'?

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#22

Post by mark_edward »

sqeaky wrote: post #9

The title implies the middle east was ever not torn apart. A quick glance through a history book shows it has always had more than its fair share of sectarian violence. It is resource starved and a major crossroads, why should we expect anything else without major effort to fix it?

What history book did you read that didn't include 600-700 years of ottoman domination?

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#23

Post by shshhdhs »

LordFrith wrote: post #13
finid wrote: post #7

The invasion of Iraq, which the New York Times played a major role in, tore the ME apart. Very soon we'll be blaming some other group for Libya and Syria.

i have been reading lately how the direction of Saudi Arabia changed dramatically after the seizing of the Grand Mosque. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

It is interesting that Iran blamed the United States for that, and mobs burned down a US embassy because of the propaganda. Does anything actually point to US involvement?

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#24

Post by shshhdhs »

devoply wrote: post #18
finid wrote: post #7

The invasion of Iraq, which the New York Times played a major role in, tore the ME apart. Very soon we'll be blaming some other group for Libya and Syria.

The Saudis and Kuwaitis gave the US 30 billion dollars to attack Iraq for the first gulf war. After giving Iraq a loan of 25 billion to attack Iran, which basically put Iraq in a difficult financial position which the Kuwaitis and the Saudis would not help it get out of it by cutting their supply, so he threatened them with war http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/18/business/iraq-threatens-em... But at the end of the day…

That news article does not say that SA funded the Iraq-Iran war:

"Both Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates provided financial backing for Iraq's eight-year war against Iran, which ended in an armistice in 1988."

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#25

Post by frozenport »

acqq wrote: post #16
twr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that's in reference to Ahmed Chalabi. See, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Pushed-America-Extraordinary/... I haven't seen the claim proven before, but, I'm not sure it needs to be: the man was an asset to Iran, knowingly or not.

Thanks. I don't see anything supporting the theory that he worked for Iran before the 2003 US invasion started. It's also known that the people who worked with G. W. Bush planned the war in Iraq even before 2001 and that W. asked for some link from Saddam to 9/11 to be produced. Then even lacking it, the link was "suggested" to the public. The politicians and media accepted that narrative. Now claiming "it was all Ir…

The Iranians provided that link. Certainly with a more rational goverment we would never take intelligence information ( for example the famous yellow cake) from a hostile goverment with more restraint. Indeed Hussein through the US invasion was a bluff until the last minute.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#26

Post by woodandsteel »

nickik wrote: post #19

I really disagree with this article. This is the sort of fundamentalist thinking that Americans trained themselves in during the Cold War. > Behind much of the Middle East’s chaos — the wars in Syria and Yemen Both of these wars are domestic in nature. In any Civil War parties naturally seek to ally themselves with outside powers. The powers then see the opportunity to win big for small(ish) cash, or at least avoid l…

>This article tries hard and fails to make everything about Iran.

No, it just says there is a rivalry. It does say it started when Iran decided to promote revolution throughout the Middle East, but has gone on of its own momentum ever since.

>It is true that Iran and the Saudis are fighting for supremacy, but it is not true that all the wars in the middle east are because of that.

The article wasn't claiming that, but it was claiming those wars are a lot harder to end because of the Iran-Saudi conflict. I don't see how you can deny that.

Re: How the Iranian-Saudi Proxy Struggle Tore Apart the Middle East

#27

Post by mikhailfranco »

nickik wrote: post #19

I really disagree with this article. This is the sort of fundamentalist thinking that Americans trained themselves in during the Cold War. > Behind much of the Middle East’s chaos — the wars in Syria and Yemen Both of these wars are domestic in nature. In any Civil War parties naturally seek to ally themselves with outside powers. The powers then see the opportunity to win big for small(ish) cash, or at least avoid l…

Note that El Sisi was Egyptian military attache in Riyadh for a time (hint, hint).
Post reply on HN