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DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

metropolitan.fi

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Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#21

Post by ohyes »

ComteDeLaFere wrote: post #18
mrweasel wrote: post #17

Regardless of the reason, deliberate targetting, accidental "drive by DDoS" or bad configuration, the question that remains is "Why is the heating dependent on being online?" It is completely reasonable if the heat system every so often "phones home", so report on usage, but it shouldn't actually stop working, if the network connection isn't available. You can blame, DDoS, hackers, network outages, the Russians, I do…

Not sure why this is controversial. Boilers have an on/off switch, and when your company manages a large number of buildings, you automate and centralize on/off for efficiency's sake, no?

No, you generally have a a control device on site. You probably also have some backup/safeguards in place in case the controller fails.

In essential systems you have to build for robustness over efficiency.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#22

Post by mrweasel »

ComteDeLaFere wrote: post #18
mrweasel wrote: post #17

Regardless of the reason, deliberate targetting, accidental "drive by DDoS" or bad configuration, the question that remains is "Why is the heating dependent on being online?" It is completely reasonable if the heat system every so often "phones home", so report on usage, but it shouldn't actually stop working, if the network connection isn't available. You can blame, DDoS, hackers, network outages, the Russians, I do…

Not sure why this is controversial. Boilers have an on/off switch, and when your company manages a large number of buildings, you automate and centralize on/off for efficiency's sake, no?

That fair enough, but in this case the heating system is directly attached to the internet. The correct way of designing something like this is having the heating system as one system and the management system as another.

The management system can then receive information and MAYBE control some aspects of the heating system. If you remove or crash the management system, the heating system just reverts back to being a "dumb" heating system.

My question is: Why in the name of all that is holy does the heating system stop working just because the remote management interface decides to reboot?

This has to be design by the same idiots that believe that an in car infotainment system should be hooked up to the drive computer in a Jeep.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#23

Post by Raed667 »

In school we have studied a scenario that is exactly like this: "The effects of IoT security on utility and daily life functions"

From hacking boilers to stop water delivery, to locking people outside their doors.

The next few years will be very fun for "infoSec" people.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#24

Post by EugeneOZ »

mrweasel wrote: post #17

Regardless of the reason, deliberate targetting, accidental "drive by DDoS" or bad configuration, the question that remains is "Why is the heating dependent on being online?" It is completely reasonable if the heat system every so often "phones home", so report on usage, but it shouldn't actually stop working, if the network connection isn't available. You can blame, DDoS, hackers, network outages, the Russians, I do…

1. Why russians? We actually neighbors (40 minutes from my home to Finland), we like them and we prefer to be friends with them.

2. Everybody can be smart after the case :) I'm sure now the'll design something more safe.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#26

Post by Pxtl »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #24
mrweasel wrote: post #17

Regardless of the reason, deliberate targetting, accidental "drive by DDoS" or bad configuration, the question that remains is "Why is the heating dependent on being online?" It is completely reasonable if the heat system every so often "phones home", so report on usage, but it shouldn't actually stop working, if the network connection isn't available. You can blame, DDoS, hackers, network outages, the Russians, I do…

1. Why russians? We actually neighbors (40 minutes from my home to Finland), we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. 2. Everybody can be smart after the case :) I'm sure now the'll design something more safe.

Russian hackers are a meme right now because of their meddling in the US Election. They hacked the Clinton campaign's email system. There's also the recent spate of DDOS attacks traced to Russia, iirc.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#27

Post by saucetenuto »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #24
mrweasel wrote: post #17

Regardless of the reason, deliberate targetting, accidental "drive by DDoS" or bad configuration, the question that remains is "Why is the heating dependent on being online?" It is completely reasonable if the heat system every so often "phones home", so report on usage, but it shouldn't actually stop working, if the network connection isn't available. You can blame, DDoS, hackers, network outages, the Russians, I do…

1. Why russians? We actually neighbors (40 minutes from my home to Finland), we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. 2. Everybody can be smart after the case :) I'm sure now the'll design something more safe.

> we like them and we prefer to be friends with them.

How true is this? Every Finnish person I've ever met has mistrusted and feared Russia.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#28

Post by EugeneOZ »

Pxtl wrote: post #26
EugeneOZ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why russians? We actually neighbors (40 minutes from my home to Finland), we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. 2. Everybody can be smart after the case :) I'm sure now the'll design something more safe.

Russian hackers are a meme right now because of their meddling in the US Election. They hacked the Clinton campaign's email system. There's also the recent spate of DDOS attacks traced to Russia, iirc.

After Trump election you can forget about them.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#29

Post by EugeneOZ »

saucetenuto wrote: post #27
EugeneOZ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why russians? We actually neighbors (40 minutes from my home to Finland), we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. 2. Everybody can be smart after the case :) I'm sure now the'll design something more safe.

> we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. How true is this? Every Finnish person I've ever met has mistrusted and feared Russia.

100%. Russia is multi-national country and we have some nations inside country that we don't like (sorry, but it's true), so I can say we like Finns even more than some russians :) They have awesome vodka (much, much better than any russian vodka), they are smart and friendly, not arrogant - awesome people. I highly doubt any russian leader, even Putler, will try to offend them.

Re: DDoS attack halts heating in Finland amidst winter

#30

Post by cryptarch »

saucetenuto wrote: post #27
EugeneOZ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why russians? We actually neighbors (40 minutes from my home to Finland), we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. 2. Everybody can be smart after the case :) I'm sure now the'll design something more safe.

> we like them and we prefer to be friends with them. How true is this? Every Finnish person I've ever met has mistrusted and feared Russia.

Perhaps the difference is between "Russia the state" and "citizens of Russia"? Especially when they're almost neighbors, when you live near the border, I don't see why you'd fear any random Russian citizen just because they live in Russia.

I'd be quite interested in their perspective on world politics. My impression is that Russia has a lot of propaganda and filtering of the media, and I assume it has a different character from the propaganda and filtering of the media in western countries (... where it happens just as well, but in a more decentralized, money-oriented fashion).

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