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American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

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Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#21

Post by alex- »

Jenya_ wrote: post #15
alex- wrote: post #13

> American children came top at thinking they were good at maths, but bottom at maths. For Korean children, the inverse was true: they considered themselves poorer at maths than the children of any other country, but were the best. This really stood out to me because I often found my own examination results puzzling. I would ace exams that I thought I failed and just pass ones I was sure I had done well in. This has…

I like to have short names for similar things which are described by different people, in this case the name is likely to be Dunning–Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Thank you!

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#22

Post by NTDF9 »

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation.

I witnessed an example of this in a music performance of a teen rock band.

In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going guys" etc.

While this feedback raises self-esteem with positive feedback, there is no criticism of where they failed...at all!! Who's going to tell them, "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked"?

When these same kids go for a "real" performance/audition, they suck at it, fail miserably and thus causing anti-social behaviors, anger, and in extreme cases, suicides.

I personally believe in a system of constructive criticism where positive feedback is necessary for the kids, yet someone actually tells them that they can do better in this, this and this area.

Irrationally high/low self-esteem is a bane for competition.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#23

Post by DanBC »

gozur88 wrote: post #18
sp332 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other causes of death.

Is suicide among kids any more common than it ever was?

It's hard to know, because the definition of suicide has changed; the way it's recorded has changed; and religion in the US means some deaths by suicide are masked.

But, in general, yes, suicide rates are rising for young people. This is worrying because young women were for years the group at lowest risk of death by suicide. (But with high rates of self harm and attempted suicide).

(US media has terrible reporting on suicide, but this one at least has some details) http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/cdc-suicide-d...

You can get some stats from CDC here, I guess. http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/ind...

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#24

Post by danbolt »

jseliger wrote: post #10

We actually want more self-efficacy: http://seliger.com/2008/05/01/self-efficacy%E2%80%94oops-the... rather than self-esteem. Which is a topic that's been bandied about in the media for a while yet hasn't really taken hold.

I really like the idea of this concept, as it helps guide people to understand what's important to them. Having a grounding sense of goals, principles, and boundaries enables people to cultivate a productive self-worth that can be very powerful.

I feel like a lot of Hacker News readers can probably relate to this, as I've sensed a lot of self-directed joy has come from their time spent learning and using computers.

Looking back, other people's people evaluating/encouraging/criticising my math skills, swimming abilities, or self-esteem has done much worse for me than individually realising what's important to myself and wanting to work towards that. I really hope that we culturally have a change in attitude towards these things.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#25

Post by jug5 »

NTDF9 wrote: post #22

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I witnessed an example of this in a music performance of a teen rock band. In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going gu…

As a whole they have become one of the most cowardly cultures.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#26

Post by mjevans »

agentgt wrote: post #20
maxxxxx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. As a kid I was not afraid of water. I could dive 10 meters down without fear. But I still couldn't swim without instruction.

Maybe so. But the author says "drown" not swim. I presume you knew how to float if you weren't afraid of the water? I have seen adults that refuse to take lessons because... because... they are afraid. So regardless I still say it is pretty crappy metaphor.

The floating thing and even treading water are more or less required education before you're let out of the shallow pool/end and in to the part where you can't stand on your own.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#27

Post by 6stringmerc »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #8
sp332 wrote: post #4

If self-esteem is so high, why is suicide so common? Giving someone self-esteem doesn't mean letting them whine all the time. Your swimming instructors saying “C’mon dude, stop complaining, let’s get on with it!” IS giving the kid self-esteem! Teaching many ways to add is important because not all kids are going to be able to learn the same way at that age. Different methods are going to "click" for different student…

The argument I've heard is that children are not learning how to deal with failure or criticism early enough to develop a basic toolkit for it.

If you need this codified in the modern US media cycle, just take a look at the Corey Feldman / Today Show situation. He was terrible on appearance #1, the internet let him know (as it does, both in tempered and vicious ways) and he claimed he was being bullied, then came back and did appearance #2 which was even musically worse than the first one. Then he thanks everybody for the support, rather than pay attention to the valid criticism that he has not made a bit of improvement since his Howard Stern performance in 1992.

Calling a terrible work product terrible isn't bullying.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#28

Post by maxxxxx »

agentgt wrote: post #20
maxxxxx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. As a kid I was not afraid of water. I could dive 10 meters down without fear. But I still couldn't swim without instruction.

Maybe so. But the author says "drown" not swim. I presume you knew how to float if you weren't afraid of the water? I have seen adults that refuse to take lessons because... because... they are afraid. So regardless I still say it is pretty crappy metaphor.

I didn't know how to float either.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#29

Post by pavel_lishin »

NTDF9 wrote: post #22

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation. I witnessed an example of this in a music performance of a teen rock band. In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going gu…

> "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked"

That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism.

Re: American Children Are Drowning in Self-Esteem

#30

Post by 6stringmerc »

>At the heart of the problem is an educational ethos that prizes building self-esteem over academic attainment.

I'm not going to argue this assertion, because I think it's a valid one, but I would like to give it context that the author is seemingly lacking:

As a generalization spanning several decades, parents aren't interested in being parents and in turn the provenance of their responsibilities at home - discipline, ethics, morals, codes of conduct - have been transitioned to that of either the School System or LEOs in more extreme cases.

I submit it's nearly impossible to be both an academic task-master and an emotional development coach at the same time and expect both of them to excel in all scenarios where the provider is a Civic Organization of some sort (e.g. school system).

After all, it's a bunch of adults promoting the self-esteem bandwagon for these past few decades, not the kids. I wholly encourage Mr. Astill to join his local PTA and begin to address his long-term concerns with the root of the problem. I say this rather tongue in cheek, because actually doing something about the issue in one's one neighborhood is a lot harder than sitting down and writing about it (as a writer, believe me I know).

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