You may as well start with JSP at a free web host like http://www.myjavaserver.com/ or http://www.eatj.com/ to play around.
Are there anything like this for python (w/wo django)?
Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
21–30 of 37 posts
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#22I don't think I'd want to starting out by learning to code relatively complicated things to a framework. If you learn a framework you won't be so much exposed to the real technologies - HTTP, HTML, CSS, Javascript. I think I'd start by reading the RFCs for those. Then write some web pages by hand with HTML and then try to write a program to do what you just did by hand. Also study the source of any other web apps you can find - open source software is great for learning.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#23If you're good in Smalltalk, check out the Seaside framework http://www.seaside.st/
Agreed. If you already know Smalltalk, then Seaside is the best possible framework to get started with. You will be at home, and it probably won't feel too different than what you are already doing.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#24ASP.NET: Soup to Nuts http://www.benkotips.com/Default.aspx?tabid=798 You won't regret it!
lol good call, I didn't even think about that and its how I make my living. C# is java in .net clothing at the end of the day. .net apps scale pretty well too.
C# 3.0 has closures, expression trees, LINQ, and other features that make it much more expressive than Java in my mind.
If you think in terms of map, fold, and filter, you'll be right at home in C#/VB.NET (they're just called Select/Aggregate/Where instead to be familiar to people whose background is SQL and not functional programming). Java, on the other hand, is agonizing to me.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#25You may as well start with JSP at a free web host like http://www.myjavaserver.com/ or http://www.eatj.com/ to play around.
Are there anything like this for python (w/wo django)?
Not free, but http://webfaction.com is a shared hosting provider I've used in the past that has a one-click setup for Django, Rails, etc. Plus they offer PostgreSQL (which not a lot of shared providers do). I don't use them anymore, but I think it's something like $10/month for the cheapest plan. It's great to learn on.
But as far as what to learn, I'd highly recommend Python and a web framework such as Django or Pylons.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#26If your Java experience is with GUI programming, you should be right at home with Google Web Toolkit. You don't need to worry about complicated web-related tasks such as handling asynchronous calls, that is all abstracted for you. You can layout your pages like you would a Swing or SWT desktop app and that should get you started.: http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/
GWT is a higher level of abstraction than most other frameworks, which some like and some do not. The top-most layer is actually not coupled to anything specific related to javascript, DOM, or HTML in general. DOM manipulation and javascript are treated much like in-line native assembly code in a traditional high-level language. You can develop an entire web application like GMail without ever seeing anything below this high level abstraction. This may make it sound weak or limited, but its actually very powerful b/c you can focus on building rich functionality rather than debugging erratic cross-browser quirks.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#27ASP.NET: Soup to Nuts http://www.benkotips.com/Default.aspx?tabid=798 You won't regret it!
Agreed, you have to start somewhere and ASP.NET works straight out of the box. After a while you might want to take a look under the hood and see just what .NET is generating and that might introduce you to some of the alternatives to just straight .NET - but you will be doing that with a lot more knowledge.
Hey - if you disagree with my post feel free to post a reply making your point. A downmod is just childish.
You might not like it but ASP.NET is a popular and extremely effective environment for building interactive web applications. I personally use a variety of different tools to build web apps and .NET ranks with them.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#28For Java I would say Spring is the current standard, although I admit the web part of spring is a bit confusing at first (in reality it is quite simple, though). Don't use Struts, please. Maybe Seam would be interesting, too - created by the Hibernate guys, it is supposed to be inspired by Rails.
My day-job project is being done in Seam... it does seem quite rails-inspired, and comes with a lot of free scaffolding and tight integration with Hibernate. We are using jBPM, too, which also gives a lot of free scaffolding.
Yes, I've used seam for several projects and found it to be an amazing framework that lends itself to rapid development and web apps that can take a Slashdotting+Digging on the same day.
Plus is has great integrations with Ajax4JSF and RichFaces which makes adding a nice Ajax front end very very easy, even if you don't know much JS, like me.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#29If your Java experience is with GUI programming, you should be right at home with Google Web Toolkit. You don't need to worry about complicated web-related tasks such as handling asynchronous calls, that is all abstracted for you. You can layout your pages like you would a Swing or SWT desktop app and that should get you started.: http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ GWT is a higher level of abstraction than most other…
I'm working on a new commerce app for a well known large company, with GWT on the front end. In the past I've worked with most of the well known Java frameworks - spring, struts, JSF... It's a different way of thinking, but it has been pretty enjoyable to learn so far.
Re: Ask HN: I want to make a webapp. Where do I start?
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed, you have to start somewhere and ASP.NET works straight out of the box. After a while you might want to take a look under the hood and see just what .NET is generating and that might introduce you to some of the alternatives to just straight .NET - but you will be doing that with a lot more knowledge.
Hey - if you disagree with my post feel free to post a reply making your point. A downmod is just childish. You might not like it but ASP.NET is a popular and extremely effective environment for building interactive web applications. I personally use a variety of different tools to build web apps and .NET ranks with them.
But then you have to contend with IIS, more expensive hosting, a smaller pool of knowledgable people on the subject of windows hosting. Not to mention the less reliable operating system/webserver.
OK I guess this could just turn into a flame war, but I just don't see why you would choose ms for web development, instead of all the free tools with great communities.