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Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

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Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#21
post #15

Pardon my ignorance, but why don't companies run their own nameservers? I get why you don't want to run email - it's highly reputation driven. But as far as I can tell, running nameservers is no harder than running webservers or DB servers. HA is potentially even easier, because the system was designed that way from day zero. I'm not suggesting I'd run one for my personal website, but twitter and github are already m…

It's not that hard but DynDNS can offer a much higher performance, reliable and advanced service. They use anycast with a lot more servers than it's practical for each company to manage. They also offer advanced georouting, failover, etc.

In the face of a DDoS I'm not sure a custom nameserver network would do much better than a company who does that for a living. The only advantage is that attacks would have to target individual services (which did happen other times).

Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#24
post #15

Pardon my ignorance, but why don't companies run their own nameservers? I get why you don't want to run email - it's highly reputation driven. But as far as I can tell, running nameservers is no harder than running webservers or DB servers. HA is potentially even easier, because the system was designed that way from day zero. I'm not suggesting I'd run one for my personal website, but twitter and github are already m…

Latency, Ops, Cost, specialised features like latency based routing (nearest datacentre to the user making a request).

It comes down to the same reasons as someone using the cloud or a cdn, why spend more running it yourself (staff, equipment etc) instead getting someone who's who job it is to run that specific piece of software to the absolute best of their ability.

It's just not a core competency of almost all companies.

Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#26
post #10

This attack looks like another probing into critical internet infrastructure Bruce Schneier had talked about. Who's next?

You suggest it's probing. Then how would the full scale attack look like? Also, how does probing help the perpetrators, doesn't it lead to better defenses in the future?

These attacks seem to be getting sophisticated faster than defenses are being thrown up. It might lead to better defenses in 5 or 10 years, but the Internet at large is built out of infrastructure is difficult and slow to upgrade. And is everyone scrambling for a solution? Not really... Most are taking the mentality "well sucks to by Dyn but it's not affecting me so I don't need to respond".

Especially because the vulnerabilities being exploited right now seem to by systemic. It's not like patching a zero day. "Uh... we've got 45,000,000 un-upgradeable IOT devices from dozens of different manufacturers executing a DoS attack". You can't fix that the same way you fix a privilege escalation bug in the linux kernel.

If the attackers end up finding the Internet's equivalent to a jugular, there might not be much we can do about it. BGP isn't going to be replaced in the next 10 years, it's here whether we like it or not. DNS is also not going to be replaced in the next 10 years. And neither are the major centralized internet exchange points. Any vulnerabilities an attacker can find related to the fundamental design of those things are going to remain vulnerabilities for many years. If the attacker can get good at exploiting them, we are in trouble.

Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#27
post #5

I am sure the DDoS problem is something that the free market will sort out. The individual players will make it costly for the other players to send problems their way. I expect a chain of "charge the next node for resource usage" to evolve. If this chain will go all the way to the end user, I don't know. If it will, then end users will probably start using routers that feature restrictions / monitoring / control of…

Wouldn't it lead to just higher internet plans prices? I can also imagine hackers ddosing themselves to get the $$ from the nodes and unfortunate users. And what about international traffic? Same charge for everyone, US citizens and Nigerians? I don't think it can work.

Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#28
post #18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why this is being downvoted. I think it's an interesting perspective. After all, it's in pretty much every internet user's and provider's interest to have a working internet.

I think it's being downvoted because it's not a great strategy to address a distributed denial of service. In a DDOS, you have a high number of attack sources, none of them using a great amount of bandwidth on their own. The bandwidth use isn't notable until you get pretty close to the destination. Thus, the costs are (mostly) borne by the victim. Basically it doesn't put the pain where it needs to go.

If the transaction cost can become insignificantly low, then money could flow in the direction of the victim. Each attack source could end up making a small contribution to the victim's bandwidth bill.

I'm not sure economic incentives will lead to this happening. There's also the difficulty in attributing traffic to the person who requested it ("is this a request, so we should bill the packet source, or is this a reply, so we should bill the packet destination?").

But in theory, I don't see the DDoS pattern (a high number of attack sources) making any difference to this proposal.

Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#29
post #15

Pardon my ignorance, but why don't companies run their own nameservers? I get why you don't want to run email - it's highly reputation driven. But as far as I can tell, running nameservers is no harder than running webservers or DB servers. HA is potentially even easier, because the system was designed that way from day zero. I'm not suggesting I'd run one for my personal website, but twitter and github are already m…

[deleted]

Re: Update Regarding DDoS Event Against Dyn Managed DNS on Oct 21

#30
post #15

Pardon my ignorance, but why don't companies run their own nameservers? I get why you don't want to run email - it's highly reputation driven. But as far as I can tell, running nameservers is no harder than running webservers or DB servers. HA is potentially even easier, because the system was designed that way from day zero. I'm not suggesting I'd run one for my personal website, but twitter and github are already m…

The complex DNS products exist for a reason. For one they can do really good geo-routing. This makes your services go faster for a global audience.

Then, some of the big companies use multiple CDN's. You might want to use one CDN provider in Asia and another in Europe. Furthermore, you may want to select CDN not only on geo-routing dimension, but on arbitrary criteria. Imagine that you had a fixed budget for, say, cloufront, and wanted to route to them as much as you could, but never exceed your budget. Modern DNS services allow all this complex of scenarios.

Furthermore, running your own DNS infrastructure is far from obvious these days. In May 2015 I gave this talk on defending DNS from DDoS:

https://idea.popcount.org/2015-05-11-oarc---dealing-with-dns...

Draw your own conclusions, but I'd say that running your own DNS makes you _more_ exposed to DDoS and extortion than using someone else's DNS infrastructure.

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