Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Codebender is closing down

codebender.cc

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 31 posts

Re: Codebender is closing down

#21

Post by kejaed »

kasbah wrote: post #17

PlatformIO and their Atom based IDE might be a good alternative for people that don't want to move to the Arduino IDE or want more support for different development boards. http://platformio.org

I've recently started to use PlatformIO after starting a project where I have an Arduino connected to a Raspberry Pi. The rpi is headless, and the Arduino IDE will not work without X running (the hacks they suggested didn't work out for me), PlatformIO has a great command line base that is working great for my use case, flashy lights! https://youtu.be/ww1q248jc7Q

Re: Codebender is closing down

#22

Post by tzikis »

gregjw wrote: post #13
darawk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're including salaries in those costs, so i'd guess it's mostly salaries. I'd be surprised if it was more than 2k/month in hosting costs.

I doubt hosting costs are even that high, perhaps even ~1k.

Thankfully, I can help answer this :)

The drilldown is roughly:

* $5K Amazon + mLab hosting

* $3K extra services (intercom, mailchimp, dropbox, gmail, slack etc)

* $1K accounting/payroll overhead

* $1K all office expenses

* $15K salaries

people underestimate the cost of compilations for 10,000 people. We have ~150,000 compilations per month ;)

Re: Codebender is closing down

#23

Post by tzikis »

groby_b wrote: post #7
sotojuan wrote: post #4

Is it true that makers don't "want" to pay for software or is it because they're so used to software being free?

Well, if you start with a movement predicated on sharing, and then say that "everything you keep public will be free", you're not exactly picking a good start. I wish more startups would charge for their product, instead of offering a $#*!@!# free tier that then proceeds to kill them more often than not. Yeah, yeah, "growth hacking", blah blah. It's not that users don't want to pay, it's that startups turn down money…

It's a combination of all the above factors.

People naturally overvalue physical goods and their cost to make, while under-valuing virtual goods (you're willing to pay for a $10 coffee with a 95% profit margin than a $5 Monthly subscription)

In the Maker movement, people gladly buy an Arduino with a 75% markup (the final cost is 3-4X the cost of making it), but they wouldn't pay for an IDE, or a library etc.

It's also true that there are many things aiming for your hard-earned money so people are reluctant to go ahead.

And then of course, there's the competition. With the Arduino IDE (and now Arduino Create) being available for free given Arduino's business model (make money from H/W), Makers aren't incentivized to pay, in fact they (naturally?) expect other things to be free as well

Re: Codebender is closing down

#25

Post by VLM »

voltagex_ wrote: post #16
sotojuan wrote: post #4

Is it true that makers don't "want" to pay for software or is it because they're so used to software being free?

I guess I'm a maker now. It's not that one $5US/month subscription is going to hurt, it's that there's tens of these kinds of tools. If I subscribed to an online code editor, maybe a graphics editor, a CAD tool, a circuit making tool - that'd add up. Yes it's a contrived example but it's the same issue you see in the video/music streaming space. Everyone's carved out their own little niche so you can't just pay for o…

The problem is the software is free, but if every user of their service sent $2.50/month then you could run it on their computer instead of your own computer. Seeing as I have perfectly good computers, why do I need to pay to use someone elses computer and insert all the middleman inefficiencies?

Last bubble there was a stereotypical internet gnomes underpants model of becoming tech billionaires. Its the same thing today:

"I want you to pay me to be your middleman"

"OK then what will the UX be?"

"It'll be like I'm not even here... well, best case anyway"

....

"Profit!"

Its getting to be a hard sell in the market. Nobody ever woke up and said "My HVAC system is too simple and too predictable, I need to get Google into the flowchart somehow".

Edited to add another way to look at the problem is at high cost its now possible for people without "the knack" to use an IDE. Now... why would people without "the knack" need an IDE? "A soldering iron so simple my mom could use it" "Cool but my mom doesn't want to use a soldering iron" "... crickets ..."

Re: Codebender is closing down

#26

Post by Kadin »

tzikis wrote: post #23
groby_b wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you start with a movement predicated on sharing, and then say that "everything you keep public will be free", you're not exactly picking a good start. I wish more startups would charge for their product, instead of offering a $#*!@!# free tier that then proceeds to kill them more often than not. Yeah, yeah, "growth hacking", blah blah. It's not that users don't want to pay, it's that startups turn down money…

It's a combination of all the above factors. People naturally overvalue physical goods and their cost to make, while under-valuing virtual goods (you're willing to pay for a $10 coffee with a 95% profit margin than a $5 Monthly subscription) In the Maker movement, people gladly buy an Arduino with a 75% markup (the final cost is 3-4X the cost of making it), but they wouldn't pay for an IDE, or a library etc. It's als…

> you're willing to pay for a $10 coffee with a 95% profit margin than a $5 Monthly subscription

One of those is $10, the other costs infinity dollars.

There's a large, and IMO underappreciated, amount of friction involved in subscription payment plans, given how often people are trying to get customers to sign up for them.

I'd buy a $50 tool more or less on impulse. A $10 or even $5/mo subscription is something I'd need to think over, not even because of the cost, but because I know it's something I'm going to have to deal with later on -- it means another place that I need to remember to update my credit card number whenever it gets changed, another thing that I might have to deal with the hassle of canceling later... overall, beyond the potential for the costs to add up over time, it's the construction of an ongoing relationship when all I wanted as a consumer was a sort of "one night stand".

Lots of vendors are looking for commitment from their customers, and I think a lot of potential customers are getting tired of it. Subscription business models are attractive for obvious reasons on the vendor side, but I wonder how many drive-by customers they pass up.

Re: Codebender is closing down

#27

Post by cbhl »

Kadin wrote: post #26
tzikis wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a combination of all the above factors. People naturally overvalue physical goods and their cost to make, while under-valuing virtual goods (you're willing to pay for a $10 coffee with a 95% profit margin than a $5 Monthly subscription) In the Maker movement, people gladly buy an Arduino with a 75% markup (the final cost is 3-4X the cost of making it), but they wouldn't pay for an IDE, or a library etc. It's als…

> you're willing to pay for a $10 coffee with a 95% profit margin than a $5 Monthly subscription One of those is $10, the other costs infinity dollars . There's a large, and IMO underappreciated, amount of friction involved in subscription payment plans, given how often people are trying to get customers to sign up for them. I'd buy a $50 tool more or less on impulse. A $10 or even $5/mo subscription is something I'd…

The cost of running a website forever is also infinity dollars, so if you want to provide a service in the cloud, you have to charge a cost that is at least proportional to the cost of running it.

Re: Codebender is closing down

#28

Post by tzikis »

cbhl wrote: post #27
Kadin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're willing to pay for a $10 coffee with a 95% profit margin than a $5 Monthly subscription One of those is $10, the other costs infinity dollars . There's a large, and IMO underappreciated, amount of friction involved in subscription payment plans, given how often people are trying to get customers to sign up for them. I'd buy a $50 tool more or less on impulse. A $10 or even $5/mo subscription is something I'd…

The cost of running a website forever is also infinity dollars , so if you want to provide a service in the cloud, you have to charge a cost that is at least proportional to the cost of running it.

well said ;)

Re: Codebender is closing down

#29

Post by dogma1138 »

tzikis wrote: post #22
gregjw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt hosting costs are even that high, perhaps even ~1k.

Thankfully, I can help answer this :) The drilldown is roughly: * $5K Amazon + mLab hosting * $3K extra services (intercom, mailchimp, dropbox, gmail, slack etc) * $1K accounting/payroll overhead * $1K all office expenses * $15K salaries people underestimate the cost of compilations for 10,000 people. We have ~150,000 compilations per month ;)

Have you considered moving the compiler to the client side? In theory you can build a C/C++ and virtually any other language compiler in Javascript.

Security restrictions on the browser might be an issue, but i think you should be able to store the binary output in the local storage and upload it to the server.

Re: Codebender is closing down

#30

Post by [deleted] »

tzikis wrote: post #22
gregjw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt hosting costs are even that high, perhaps even ~1k.

Thankfully, I can help answer this :) The drilldown is roughly: * $5K Amazon + mLab hosting * $3K extra services (intercom, mailchimp, dropbox, gmail, slack etc) * $1K accounting/payroll overhead * $1K all office expenses * $15K salaries people underestimate the cost of compilations for 10,000 people. We have ~150,000 compilations per month ;)

[deleted]
Post reply on HN