Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida • Hacker News Board

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#21

Post by sukilot » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #16

vamur wrote: post #13

Retail solar power is not viable currently. Cheapest reputable panel on aliexpress is about $1.2K for 1KW. Lead-acid on Amazon is about $500 per 1KWH (not counting shipping). Assuming backup of 30KWH it would require about $16.2K without inverters, cables, installation or shipping. And with these it can be 20-30K+. So it is not surprising that retail solar is not viable without subsidies. Which are in essence wealth…

Storage is not required for retail solar, just grid-tie. All the non-carbon systems require subsidy. The solar subsidy has been hugely effective at reducing prices.

reducing prices, or shifting prices to the rest of the population, regardless of energy use?

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#22

Post by sukilot » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

vamur wrote: post #13

Retail solar power is not viable currently. Cheapest reputable panel on aliexpress is about $1.2K for 1KW. Lead-acid on Amazon is about $500 per 1KWH (not counting shipping). Assuming backup of 30KWH it would require about $16.2K without inverters, cables, installation or shipping. And with these it can be 20-30K+. So it is not surprising that retail solar is not viable without subsidies. Which are in essence wealth…

Subsidies for early adopters are a way to finance early productionization so that the industry can grow to become more efficient in the future at which point everyone else enjoys cheaper energy. Early adopters paying full price is a subsidy gift to late adopters who don't take on the risk.

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#23

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

magthor wrote: post #17

In my view Florida would be better served by deregulating their electricity markets (as 16 other states/territories have done) and allow 3rd party suppliers to compete for business. Then consumers who want solar (or other forms of green power) can buy it directly without having to put panels on their roof that will obsolete in a few years.

[deleted]

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#24

Post by sukilot » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

vamur wrote: post #13

Retail solar power is not viable currently. Cheapest reputable panel on aliexpress is about $1.2K for 1KW. Lead-acid on Amazon is about $500 per 1KWH (not counting shipping). Assuming backup of 30KWH it would require about $16.2K without inverters, cables, installation or shipping. And with these it can be 20-30K+. So it is not surprising that retail solar is not viable without subsidies. Which are in essence wealth…

It reminds me of the CFL debacle of the past 10 years: expensive, inconvenient, dangerous technology that never realizes it's promised long term value. LED lights are a far better solution that only took a few extra years to make practical. Everybody getting solar panel now is going to be embarrassed when the core tech (the research we should subsidize!) advances to make existing installations obsolete.

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#25

Post by mycall » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #8

dtnewman wrote: post #6

The proposal (as it will be written on the Florida ballot) starts off: > This amendment establishes a right under Florida's constitution for consumers to own or lease solar equipment installed on their property to generate electricity for their own use. I wish that the article would have talked a bit more about how misleading this sentence is. It makes it sound like Floridians are gaining the ability the own or lease…

The big problem with it is this: "to ensure that consumers who do not choose to install solar are not required to subsidize the costs of backup power and electric grid access to those who do." This is essentially an open door that can later be slammed shut in the faces of solar installations that are leased at a discount to the homeowner on the fact that excess power can be sold back to the grid (net metering). It co…

> a classic political ploy

Letting corporate special interest groups write almost all of the legislation is the key problem here.

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#26

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #21

pjc50 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage is not required for retail solar, just grid-tie. All the non-carbon systems require subsidy. The solar subsidy has been hugely effective at reducing prices.

reducing prices, or shifting prices to the rest of the population, regardless of energy use?

Reducing the price of solar for future installations.

Yes, the overall cost of energy would be less with an all-fossil system, but that's no longer acceptable.

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#27

Post by dtnewman » Sun, Oct 09, 2016, 10:48 PM UTC

dtnewman wrote: post #6

The proposal (as it will be written on the Florida ballot) starts off: > This amendment establishes a right under Florida's constitution for consumers to own or lease solar equipment installed on their property to generate electricity for their own use. I wish that the article would have talked a bit more about how misleading this sentence is. It makes it sound like Floridians are gaining the ability the own or lease…

whoops: typo above. I'm not "wording" that this might get passed... I'm worried :)

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#28

Post by gjolund » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 10:42 AM UTC

This article does a terrible job highlighting what you can do about this.

Vote no on prop 1 in November.

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#29

Post by vamur » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 1:07 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #16

vamur wrote: post #13

Retail solar power is not viable currently. Cheapest reputable panel on aliexpress is about $1.2K for 1KW. Lead-acid on Amazon is about $500 per 1KWH (not counting shipping). Assuming backup of 30KWH it would require about $16.2K without inverters, cables, installation or shipping. And with these it can be 20-30K+. So it is not surprising that retail solar is not viable without subsidies. Which are in essence wealth…

Storage is not required for retail solar, just grid-tie. All the non-carbon systems require subsidy. The solar subsidy has been hugely effective at reducing prices.

Grid-tie is not a magical energy storage. It's actually a headache for grid operators.

Panel prices have dropped due to competition between Chinese and German manufacturers and large scale solar power plant projects, such as the 600MW power plant in India. So subsidies to retail sector have miniscule effect on prices. Also, if the goal of subsidies was to reduce prices then it'd be better to spend them on projects to reduce panel/storage prices and investments in solar power plants.

Re: Why It’s So Hard to Get Solar in Florida

#30

Post by vamur » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 1:12 PM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #15

vamur wrote: post #13

Retail solar power is not viable currently. Cheapest reputable panel on aliexpress is about $1.2K for 1KW. Lead-acid on Amazon is about $500 per 1KWH (not counting shipping). Assuming backup of 30KWH it would require about $16.2K without inverters, cables, installation or shipping. And with these it can be 20-30K+. So it is not surprising that retail solar is not viable without subsidies. Which are in essence wealth…

Why is solar powered AC cheaper than solar powered mains circuit?

It can be purchased piecemeal, can only run during the sunlight, and requires little storage and space. As opposed to purchasing and installing solar panels and storage.