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How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

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21–30 of 236 posts

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#21
post #7

The worst is, if you don't keep up with this, good luck getting a web job five years from now, you'll be the equivalent of a Cobol programmer. Can't get off the train.

I wouldn't pick on the COBOL programmers too much – they've had a half a century of decent jobs, after all.

The lesson I'd draw from that is that you want to avoid siloing yourself. Most of those COBOL developers worked on the same kind of systems, often in the same place, for long periods of time. That kind of deep specialization is useful but also dangerous to you in direct relation to where that larger field is going.

In the web space, this is complicated by the somewhat unusual browser environment: in 5 years, you will always be glad that you spent time understanding the DOM, ES2016 and later, modern CSS, how to debug in every browser, etc. because ultimately everything is built on top of them.

You may or may not benefit from having spent time learning the framework of the day and that will be in direct relation to how much of that time was spent understanding broader concepts and styles versus dealing with idiosyncrasies and technical debt in the code-base. That's especially true for things like build tools which are easily replaced without visible changes to a project – they're useful and to be appreciated, but they're more overhead than part of your value as a developer.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#22

I'm a web dev, been doing this 11 years. But i totally feel past it, granted i code less and less nowadays so i havent kept up with new technologies. I've hired people that are much better at web dev than me and let them accomplish a task with pretty much whatever tech they want to use, because i believe you shouldn't constrict a developer if you dont have to. Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours for…

Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours

If your entire job is doing small apps that take a week of work, these tools are not much better than the previous generation (personally I'd use Rails but that's just one generation on from PHP/MySQL). Especially when you add in the cost of non uniformity if you let everyone choose their own slightly different flavour of the innumerable javascript tools available.

But as part of a team that has migrated a 5 year old codebase from Rails to React in the last year, whilst I was skeptical at first, React has been an absolute godsend. Everything we build now is so much more modular and much closer to how non tech people view our website (and so how they ask for features), which makes it easier to develop. React isn't designed to help "I need to build this 20 hour website quicker".

I think the problem is mostly cargo culting. Smart and outspoken developers use these tools, but they're also the ones dealing with complex problems at their jobs, not everybody needs to solve the problems they are solving. And "Honestly Rails is good enough for this app" doesn't make for a very sexy meetup presentation.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#24
post #12

As these rehashed JavaScript versions of http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/soap/simple are on front page of Hacker News every other day, I can't even begin to imagine what kinds of rants we will see in the next 15 years or so.

"How it feels like to learn Machine Learning in 2025" (9 years from now, 671 upvotes, 158 comments)

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#25

It's easy to show how complex those systems are. It's easy because they are complex. And that's pretty normal. Let someone talk about Java Enterprise development, the symptoms of your body and their diagnoses or just try to explain how to build a pencil ( https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil ). We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. I think the problem is…

I like how you phrased this. I have a similar feeling about this but I couldn't express it so clearly.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#26

It's easy to show how complex those systems are. It's easy because they are complex. And that's pretty normal. Let someone talk about Java Enterprise development, the symptoms of your body and their diagnoses or just try to explain how to build a pencil ( https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil ). We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers. I think the problem is…

> We're professionals, after all, and TypeScript and React were not build by some teenage hackers.

Overall correct

> The reason is that we started to build complex applications instead of enhancing grandma's blog using jQuery.animate, get over it.

And this is where we disagree

Complexity is needed sometimes, needless complexity only brings the overall value down

If I want to do a website using Django I need to get: Django. Period.

I may need some other libraries, but they're much fewer than any basic node.js project, even with things like Flask

I have one package manager: pip. It works

With express.js you need a library to parse an HTTP request body ffs. https://github.com/expressjs/body-parser

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#28
And that's way I feel much more comfortable in Dart ecosystem:

- sane SDK and sane - not surprising - lang without this hell

- jquery like functionality built in

- one package manager and package repository

- can be used on server as well

- nice tooling (WebStorm-IntelliJ, VisualStudio Code)

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#29

I'm a web dev, been doing this 11 years. But i totally feel past it, granted i code less and less nowadays so i havent kept up with new technologies. I've hired people that are much better at web dev than me and let them accomplish a task with pretty much whatever tech they want to use, because i believe you shouldn't constrict a developer if you dont have to. Even for a simple app that it'd take me 20 - 30 hours for…

> I still feel like a bad coder because i'm not doing it their way. :( Well, in some ways yes. But experience has a value Today people use an Arduino to flash a led, "in my time" it could be done with 2 transistors (you can do it with one + one "funny" component I guess - like a transformer)

The point of flashing an LED with an Arduino is not to flash the LED, it's to get the tools setup and workflow working while learning the basics. It's the "hello world" of microcontroller programming.

I've heard this process called "flow flushing". With things like FPGAs it can take days to go from nothing to flashing an LED. Because the toolchain is large, complicated and opaque.

It sounds like the Javascript world have built large toolchains for large projects and have then cargo-culted into using the same toolchains for tiny projects when they don't have to.

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