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Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

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Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#21

Post by 59nadir »

michaelchisari wrote: post #8

For side projects, it can be a little daunting, but ultimately represents a healthy eco-system. But the issue for me is how employers handles it. No, I don't know Angular. But I have used Backbone, Ember & React. So do you really need an Angular expert, especially when Angular is only a few years old and is completely changing in Angular 2? Should employers insist on extensive trade knowledge in a specific framework,…

I think the real markers should be that a person is not afraid of broadening their views. Usually, the advice for hiring for Erlang, as an example, is not to hire people that know Erlang, but focus on hiring good people (who are capable of learning beyond your average C-like) and then teach them Erlang. It's a small and very easily learned language, for sure, but learning it is certainly a bigger undertaking than learning a JS framework.

It astounds me that hiring for JS frameworks actually is that specific, considering you're likely passing up on people that are simply better problem solvers.

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#22

Post by douche »

asimuvPR wrote: post #18

The only way we are going to build better tools is to keep building them. Complaining about the sort of cambrian explosion going on right now on web development is short sighted. Ideas need to be discovered, explored and improved. Everything needs to be challenged. This is unknown territory in many ways. It does get a little hectic and tiring at times but that's the price we pay.

The tools need to be better than what came before, rather than just different. So far I've dealt with grunt, then gulp, then webpack. None of these are appreciably better than make, they are just different and newer...

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#24

Post by usgroup »

dperfect wrote: post #13

The problem really isn't a function of the number of tools and frameworks in existence, but rather in the distribution of popularity among them. Each ecosystem around a set of technologies essentially has its own "Herfindahl index"[1] of sorts. For example, the Ruby ecosystem's index might be fairly high, simply because Rails is so dominant (to the point where Ruby and Rails are often conflated by outsiders). On the…

I think it's a JS problem with trends around other languages tending moreso to a single eco-system.

Regarding JS frameworks, I think the barrier to entry is still low, and given the suffering involved for any given tool-chain, I'd imagine the temptation to roll ones own is high.

Finally, JS framework fates are tethered to that of the browser. The latter changes frequently, so the former ends up in a refactoring perma-loop.

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#25

Post by DSteinmann »

niftylettuce wrote: post #20

I'm building a better JS framework https://github.com/crocodilejs/crocodile-node-mvc-framework - release v1.0.0 comes out soon, join in Slack at http://slack.crocodilejs.com/

> CrocodileJS is a Node MVC framework that lets you chew apart JavaScript

Four words in and CrocodileJS is already lumped onto the 4/5ths heap of unusable frameworks (Node is an immediate non-starter in the same vein as MongoDB). Just to give you some perspective and perhaps help you see the irony.

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#26

Post by crdoconnor »

michaelchisari wrote: post #8

For side projects, it can be a little daunting, but ultimately represents a healthy eco-system. But the issue for me is how employers handles it. No, I don't know Angular. But I have used Backbone, Ember & React. So do you really need an Angular expert, especially when Angular is only a few years old and is completely changing in Angular 2? Should employers insist on extensive trade knowledge in a specific framework,…

>But the issue for me is how employers handles it.

Often they opt for what's "hot". Which is the worst possible approach. Or for what it seems easy to hire in (which isn't much better).

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#27

Post by electic »

dperfect wrote: post #13

The problem really isn't a function of the number of tools and frameworks in existence, but rather in the distribution of popularity among them. Each ecosystem around a set of technologies essentially has its own "Herfindahl index"[1] of sorts. For example, the Ruby ecosystem's index might be fairly high, simply because Rails is so dominant (to the point where Ruby and Rails are often conflated by outsiders). On the…

You can spin it this way if you like. However, a big part of this framework and Tool epidemic is ego. The trick is to take a dominant framework or tool, find a deficiency, and then rewrite it again with that deficiency fixed. Why? Because if it takes off, your career takes of.

What developers should really do is contribute and make the existing projects better. Everyone will thank you for it.

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#28

Post by mastazi »

niftylettuce wrote: post #20

I'm building a better JS framework https://github.com/crocodilejs/crocodile-node-mvc-framework - release v1.0.0 comes out soon, join in Slack at http://slack.crocodilejs.com/

When I clicked on that link I was really hoping to find a Rick Astley video.

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#29

Post by usgroup »

michaelchisari wrote: post #15
bigiain wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, a carpenter can buy a good hammer/set of chisels/block plane/circular saw - and use them for decades without cow orkers or project managers questioning their choice of tool and demanding they use completely different incompatible ones...

Imagine if every six months, your circular saw became incompatible with the version of wood you need to cut. Meanwhile, the hammer you use is no longer supported, and breaks every time you pick it up, but using a new hammer means changing every single nail in the parts that you've already completed. Then the job ends, and you look for a new job, they don't think you're qualified because you used the same chisel for t…

> Imagine if every six months, your circular saw became incompatible with the version of wood you need to cut.

This made me lol, thank you ... Those poor carpenters. Thousands of years of metaphorical abuse.

Re: Too Many Tools and Frameworks (2015)

#30

Post by AdrianB1 »

Looking at the long term life of an application, the abundance and volatility of the tools and frameworks is a nightmare. Who will find developers for ZZZZ framework in 3 years from now?

Also the fragmentation of efforts to improve the tools is a waste of resources. Instead of choosing a few directions and delivering, everyone knows better and it's doing his own version of different, but usually not better, tool. That will help anyone else? "Yes!", they will say. "I don't care", they think.

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