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80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

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Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#21

Post by nonbel »

projektfu wrote: post #17

In the couple years I spent doing biology research, about 8 years ago, I was skeptical of most research from China because it already had a reputation already of being untrustworthy. But why stop at China? I spent a good part of a year trying and failing to replicate an English study, and looking around for materials referenced in another study that simply don't exist, finally being told by the principal on that stud…

I had a very similar experience. And you are correct that these problems are not at all limited to "China", although those authors tend to be a little less sophisticated in their (what may generously be called) shortcuts.

For example, if you do a real literature review on a medical topic (not just credulously take their word for it) you are almost sure to find that one of the primary assumptions/claims was actually never studied. One paper refs a second which refs a third that speculated about it in the introduction, but now "everyone knows it".

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#24

Post by travmatt »

psyc wrote: post #18
finid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute! That seems to be backward. Doesn't "losing face" come from being caught doing the wrong thing or being dishonest, so that the incentive to fabricate data for something as important as scientific research should be very, very low?

No, because losing face is not really about morality or honesty in the first place - it's more important than honesty. The primary thing here is the sharp and pervasive divide between facade and reality. The facade is more important. There are a lot of cultures where fronting is the main thing. It's just particularly evident in China.

Also in Japan, as even a nuclear disaster isn't impetus enough to forego 'saving face':

On July 5, an independent investigative commission established by the Japanese Diet issued its final report on the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station. Hailed as the definitive word on the subject thus far, the report points to what it calls the "fundamental causes" of the disaster, all of them cultural. The chairman's message in the report assails "the ingrained conventions of Japanese culture: our reflexive obedience; our reluctance to question authority; our devotion to 'sticking with the program'; our groupism; and our insularity." The nuclear disaster, in short, was "a disaster 'Made in Japan.'" News media around the world characterized the report's damning indictment of Japanese culture as unusually candid for the nation known to do anything to save face.[http://thebulletin.org/japan%E2%80%99s-culture-culprit-nucle...]

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#25

Post by _yvjs »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #5

Considering past occurrences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal and general behaviour in online market places (my last experience was that the product was advertised to be shipped from Germany (expect fast delivery), but arrived a month later from China) then it should not come as very big surprise (I am not saying that this is normal or acceptable, but that it is not very surprising). My questio…

There was an interesting study looking at measures of honesty and economic growth: https://www.uea.ac.uk/documents/3154295/7054672/Honesty+pape....

Chinese nationals were in the top 2 of both measures of dishonesty (which didn't correlate all that well in general, so I'm not sure "honesty" is all that easy to measure), while British nationals were in the bottom 2 of both. One of the correlations they found was that rates of honesty were correlated with rates of Protestant Christianity.

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#26

Post by asddddd »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #5

Considering past occurrences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal and general behaviour in online market places (my last experience was that the product was advertised to be shipped from Germany (expect fast delivery), but arrived a month later from China) then it should not come as very big surprise (I am not saying that this is normal or acceptable, but that it is not very surprising). My questio…

> general behaviour in online market places (my last experience was that the product was advertised to be shipped from Germany (expect fast delivery), but arrived a month later from China)

Sounds more like a drop shipper reselling stuff from Aliexpress or similar, not necessarily anything to do with a Chinese seller. They add a hefty markup and ship directly to you. It's particularly popular with counterfeits ("replicas").

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#27

Post by AlexCoventry »

Odenwaelder wrote: post #9
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #6

Science is having an astounding crisis -- I don't think there's been anything like it in history before. If this is true about Chinese clinical data? More generally, if there is any simple tag that covers fraud at this scale? Other people working under that tag will experience deleterious effects for years to come. The only way I see out of this is a rigorous, self-imposed body of standards. Even then I'm not sure th…

It's not only about fake data, it's also, maybe even most importantly, the low quality data. Publications with low data quality decrease the signal-to-noise ratio, leading to a slower scientific progress. Purely from a scientific standpoint: If you identify fake data, you just take them out of your model training set. But identifying low quality data is much harder.

It's reminiscent of the role played by the Sophons in Cixin Liu's The Three-Body Problem, except in this case it's self-inflicted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem#First_C...

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#28

Post by projektfu »

nonbel wrote: post #21
projektfu wrote: post #17

In the couple years I spent doing biology research, about 8 years ago, I was skeptical of most research from China because it already had a reputation already of being untrustworthy. But why stop at China? I spent a good part of a year trying and failing to replicate an English study, and looking around for materials referenced in another study that simply don't exist, finally being told by the principal on that stud…

I had a very similar experience. And you are correct that these problems are not at all limited to "China", although those authors tend to be a little less sophisticated in their (what may generously be called) shortcuts. For example, if you do a real literature review on a medical topic (not just credulously take their word for it) you are almost sure to find that one of the primary assumptions/claims was actually n…

So true. This is especially important as people study ways of improving metrics of markers of disease instead of actually improving disease endpoints. For example, there is a supplement marketed in the veterinary space that may lower blood urea nitrogen in uremic animals, according to a study. Whoop-de-do! I don't care about urea, it doesn't cause the disease of uremia. It is just a marker. You could convert all the urea to ammonia and now have a patient with two diseases and a BUN of 0.

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#29

Post by [deleted] »

nonbel wrote: post #21
projektfu wrote: post #17

In the couple years I spent doing biology research, about 8 years ago, I was skeptical of most research from China because it already had a reputation already of being untrustworthy. But why stop at China? I spent a good part of a year trying and failing to replicate an English study, and looking around for materials referenced in another study that simply don't exist, finally being told by the principal on that stud…

I had a very similar experience. And you are correct that these problems are not at all limited to "China", although those authors tend to be a little less sophisticated in their (what may generously be called) shortcuts. For example, if you do a real literature review on a medical topic (not just credulously take their word for it) you are almost sure to find that one of the primary assumptions/claims was actually n…

[deleted]

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#30

Post by [deleted] »

nonbel wrote: post #21
projektfu wrote: post #17

In the couple years I spent doing biology research, about 8 years ago, I was skeptical of most research from China because it already had a reputation already of being untrustworthy. But why stop at China? I spent a good part of a year trying and failing to replicate an English study, and looking around for materials referenced in another study that simply don't exist, finally being told by the principal on that stud…

I had a very similar experience. And you are correct that these problems are not at all limited to "China", although those authors tend to be a little less sophisticated in their (what may generously be called) shortcuts. For example, if you do a real literature review on a medical topic (not just credulously take their word for it) you are almost sure to find that one of the primary assumptions/claims was actually n…

[deleted]
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