Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#21

Post by kaitai » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #20

kaitai wrote: post #13

As I write this, there are just a small number of comments, all saying "there's no money in research" and "scientists are paid less than McDonald's burger flipper". It's like a whole section of disgruntled grad students who wanted to be professors. There is tons of money in science! People who "fail out" of or never wanted to pursue the stupid academic dream become active in patent law, become managers at pharma and…

What you described, where the money is at, is commonly referred to as "industry" and yes it is "science" oriented but pursuit of profit definitely changes the dynamic away from academic pursuit of advancement of the human species that, more often than not, results in failed outcomes rather than something that can make money. Who are you to judge and deride the "stupid academic dream" from which all those industries h…

Full disclosure: I'm an academic, pursuing the "advancement of the human species"...

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#22

Post by psychometry » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

lintiness wrote: post #19

i'm sorry, but technology is making access to science easy enough that "my high school can't afford to offer that bio class" excuse just doesn't work anymore. hell, even news aggs like google offer a science section every day.

I'm sorry, but you've clearly never taken an actual lab science course if you think it can be replaced by Google News.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#23

Post by kaitai » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:01 PM UTC

existencebox wrote: post #18

kaitai wrote: post #13

As I write this, there are just a small number of comments, all saying "there's no money in research" and "scientists are paid less than McDonald's burger flipper". It's like a whole section of disgruntled grad students who wanted to be professors. There is tons of money in science! People who "fail out" of or never wanted to pursue the stupid academic dream become active in patent law, become managers at pharma and…

I would warn your optimism however, my wife is a lab manager (performs research, publishes, ostensibly as involved in the science as any PHD) but I would by no stretch of the word say she makes "good money"; both of us made more back when we were service workers. The perception in her group is that the positions that pay even close to tech (some of the ones you list, manager at pharma company etc) are almost paramoun…

It's definitely true that getting the manager at pharma company type jobs are hard to get, and lab managers are not paid super well. But: a clinical research manager has an average salary of about $94k in the US, while web developer not otherwise specified has an average salary of about $66k in the US. Restaurant manager comes down to $37k on average, Bath & Body Works retail manager comes up to $54k. Glassdoor lists a bunch of lab manager jobs at $51k to $65k. The average salary for a black man in the US is about $35k and the average salary for a white man in the US is about $48k [1]. Every science-related job in the list is above the average salary for white, black, or hispanic men in the US, and certainly above average for women. Retail and food service fall on either side -- and which jobs are more likely to have health insurance?

What kind of jobs did you have experience with before lab manager? I'm curious.

[1] http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#24

Post by lkbm » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

lintiness wrote: post #19

i'm sorry, but technology is making access to science easy enough that "my high school can't afford to offer that bio class" excuse just doesn't work anymore. hell, even news aggs like google offer a science section every day.

I find mathematics interesting, and I'll watch educational videos about it on YouTube and occasionally read some stuff, and I COULD take various free online courses and/or tutorials, and yet despite all this, I'm don't seem to be advancing as much as I did in college when I had to spend three hours a week in a lecture and several times that working problems.

Because having the option to take a course teaches me nothing in itself, and the occasional interesting, non-intensive video doesn't begin to compete with semi-mandatory hours of instruction and practice every week.

A few people will learn a lot without taking a class, but far fewer people have the motivation and drive to do that than have the intelligence and drive to benefit greatly from a class.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#25

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #13

As I write this, there are just a small number of comments, all saying "there's no money in research" and "scientists are paid less than McDonald's burger flipper". It's like a whole section of disgruntled grad students who wanted to be professors. There is tons of money in science! People who "fail out" of or never wanted to pursue the stupid academic dream become active in patent law, become managers at pharma and…

[deleted]

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#26

Post by jkot » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

BEEdwards wrote: post #9

jkot wrote: post #4

Great! Problem is not that scientists are often paid less than McDonald's burger flipper. No! It is social and gender issue! Lets push even more students into this career path.

So there is no possible way that the issues could be related. It's only that stupid social justice that makes people talk about demographics and socio economics as we all know. There is no other reason to look into it...

But the original article is treating it as separate issue. It does not even acknowledge bad career prospects and low salary as a problem.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#27

Post by shae » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

I'd like to go get a PhD and teach, but it pays less than half of what I make as a software dev. I wish I could somehow teach science & tech and also make money.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#28

Post by dorfsmay » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:33 PM UTC

stdbrouw wrote: post #5

dorfsmay wrote: post #2

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

Isn't it a well-known phenomenon that the children of well-to-do parents often end up in the arts and other fields with high cultural capital? Having money allows you to not worry about money.

I was talking high end of middle class where kids will have to support themselves eventually. I think you're talking rich people where your "career" won't impact your standard of living (because of parents wealth).

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#29

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

lkbm wrote: post #24

lintiness wrote: post #19

i'm sorry, but technology is making access to science easy enough that "my high school can't afford to offer that bio class" excuse just doesn't work anymore. hell, even news aggs like google offer a science section every day.

I find mathematics interesting, and I'll watch educational videos about it on YouTube and occasionally read some stuff, and I COULD take various free online courses and/or tutorials, and yet despite all this, I'm don't seem to be advancing as much as I did in college when I had to spend three hours a week in a lecture and several times that working problems. Because having the option to take a course teaches me nothi…

Realistically, if you don't have the motivation and drive to study science all by yourself, you don't have the motivation and drive to be a scientist.

A scientist doesn't learn everything they need in classes and then stop. They need to continually improve their knowledge; when I had an academic career I spent perhaps 4 hours/day going through papers and keeping up with the literature. Nowadays that's probably dropped to 2 hours/day, since I'm in a space where old school techniques (operations research FTW!) are generally pretty effective.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#30

Post by dorfsmay » Fri, Sep 23, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

colmvp wrote: post #12

dorfsmay wrote: post #2

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

I came from a well-to-do family and well... my parents pushed me to go into medicine/finance/science, partially because they perceived those industries as making a lot of money and for the prestige. Science might not be as lucrative as finance/medicine, but in my circles, people certainly respect an intellectual scientist more than they do a lowly designer (me!). I went into tech as a designer before the wave hit lar…

When? How was the economy when you chose your career? Today, in a very uncertain economy with lots of parents not finding work (western Canada), high school kids look at research as a hobby that won't allow them to support a family.

I pushed my daughter to go to a two-day university bio discovery thing, she absolutely loved it, but said that all the research assistants confirm they can't afford to live and most of them are thinking of dropping into the industry so they can stop asking their parents to help paying the rent.