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Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

stripe.com

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#21
post #19

1.5% additional cost to already high transaction fees is ridiculous!

How so? About 1% for about a month (30 days) is in the ballpark for A/R acceleration, isn't it? The "about 1%" for the 20 day lag on the issuing side collections cycle is from the merchant paying for about one month of cardholder interest. The Visa/Mastercard oligopoly's fee structure isn't Stripe's fault... EDIT: Gosh - it looks like they're building it around ACH in the US and taking the risk "on us". That's bold.…

It doesn't cost 1.5% to execute the refund hack onto a Visa/MC debit card.

It really depends where the cost is being eaten. Is Lyft eating this or is the driver? Why would anyone agree to a 1.5% reduction in earnings to get their money now instead of tomorrow/2 days?

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#23
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the customer issues a chargeback, who ultimately owns the liability? The person corresponding to the managed account, or the owner of the marketplace that manages the accounts? Will the owner of the marketplace be held responsible for the requirements like maintaining a low chargeback percentage, or is that requirement passed on to the managed account (which could be closed if that becomes an issue)?

With managed accounts the platform owns ultimate liability. This is because with managed accounts we agree not to contact the account holder directly under normal circumstances, so we are more limited in our ability to ask for more information or quickly shut down potentially fraudulent accounts. As for things like chargeback rate, it depends more on your type of business than the particular Stripe product you use. F…

Sure, I can imagine both scenarios coming up. On the one hand, if the builder of a platform sets it up in a way that makes fraud quite likely, then that's the platform builder's problem. On the other hand, if the builder of the platform takes reasonable steps to make fraud unlikely, but occasionally some user does things they shouldn't, that should ideally be passed through to that user and that user can have their account terminated.

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? About 1% for about a month (30 days) is in the ballpark for A/R acceleration, isn't it? The "about 1%" for the 20 day lag on the issuing side collections cycle is from the merchant paying for about one month of cardholder interest. The Visa/Mastercard oligopoly's fee structure isn't Stripe's fault... EDIT: Gosh - it looks like they're building it around ACH in the US and taking the risk "on us". That's bold.…

It doesn't cost 1.5% to execute the refund hack onto a Visa/MC debit card. It really depends where the cost is being eaten. Is Lyft eating this or is the driver? Why would anyone agree to a 1.5% reduction in earnings to get their money now instead of tomorrow/2 days?

I'm not talking about card refunds. I'm talking about all the lags in ACH and all the ways that (under UCC) that consumers can grab their money back even after it already went through...

> Why would anyone agree to a 1.5% reduction in earnings to get their money now instead of tomorrow/2 days?

I have no idea. I don't live in that world. Sounds like some pawn-shop level need-for-cash to me.

But I do know that in business, factoring receivables is a thing. Dell used to expect vendors (such as Intel, but a lot of others too) to put their parts at the factory and then wouldn't take receipt of the part until it was picked from the bin for the purpose of placing it on the motherboard of a computer that had just been ordered and that they were now assembling. They'd essentially send Intel (or whoever) an email (well, EDI), and say: "Hey, we took receipt of your part. You can invoice us us net 60 now". Maybe it was net 30 - but I think it was 60. They worked out a deal where they'd send these through GE and GE would go to the manufacturers and say: "Dell owes you $10M in 60 days. You can have that (from us) in 30 days for a point and now for 2 points" (These were percentages, not basis points).

IF the vendor had been somebody that wasn't intel (and many were), waiting for 60 days (at least) after delivery of product to a site to get paid is a huuuge hicky on your balance sheet and a big factor in cash flow which constrains inventory turn over and growth.

Doing the volume and time shift of sums of money to allow mismatched transaction parties to match is a (the?) key thing that banks provide. They charge me - on whatever terms they like - to be able to close a transaction with a retail housing unit seller who expects 100% of the full amount today. My alternative would be to save up for 15 years. Most people don't want to do that.

I guess the issue here is that if someone doesn't want to pay 1.5% for that 48 business day hours (including holiday weekends), they'll wait. If they need the money, they'll take the hit.

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#25
Really excited to see this feature come to managed accounts on Stripe! Instant transfers are why I use Square Cash over Venmo.

A question for the Stripe engineers: does this mean we would instantly know if a transfer has failed? One of our biggest pain points right now is when a user enters incorrect account details, we transfer money to them, and the payment is reversed a week later.

And one other question: if we're using balanced transactions to take charges and use them to fund transfers, we still need to wait for the charge to settle right? So in that scenario, "instant" means 5-7 days instead of twice that?

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#26
While this is exciting, this is not always a good thing.

Two years ago, we tried this at Homejoy as an incentives for the cleaners to get 5 stars.ie. If you get 5's on your appointment, we'll pay you out the same day. We did this manually via Stripe, of course.

Efficacy of the incentive aside (it didn't actually have an impact on 5s), we cut this program for two reasons:

1) Transaction cost, as many users pointed out

2) Unpredictability - most of the workers on our marketplace preferred the predictability of weekly or biweekly payouts, even if the size of those payouts varied. It's hard enough for people to manage personal finances on a regular schedule without the added headache of getting money instantly, or daily.

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#27
post #25

Really excited to see this feature come to managed accounts on Stripe! Instant transfers are why I use Square Cash over Venmo. A question for the Stripe engineers: does this mean we would instantly know if a transfer has failed? One of our biggest pain points right now is when a user enters incorrect account details, we transfer money to them, and the payment is reversed a week later. And one other question: if we're…

> does this mean we would instantly know if a transfer has failed?

Within 30 minutes in the worst case. Most failures we would be able to communicate synchronously, such as if the card is not a debit card or the bank doesn't support instant payouts. Some other failures we communicate asynchronously, but ~instantly (e.g. if the bank account behind the debit card has been closed), as we have to reach out to financial partners for that information.

> we still need to wait for the charge to settle right?

Nope, we support instant payouts from the moment a charge succeeds, you do not need to wait for funds to settle in the traditional card-to-ACH sense! Specifically, instant payouts can be made off of an account's "pending" balance, as opposed to the usual limitation of "available" only.

The timing aspect that both of these questions touch on are one of the big features of this launch, and something we spent a lot of time on to get the logistics to work exactly right (there's a lot under the hood there). We're really excited to have something that operates faster than the 2-3 days ACH can take, both in moving money and giving you success feedback.

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#28
post #25

Really excited to see this feature come to managed accounts on Stripe! Instant transfers are why I use Square Cash over Venmo. A question for the Stripe engineers: does this mean we would instantly know if a transfer has failed? One of our biggest pain points right now is when a user enters incorrect account details, we transfer money to them, and the payment is reversed a week later. And one other question: if we're…

Unfortunately, Square Cash just removed their "instant transfers" - https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/29/square-cashs-fast-payments...

They just implemented a venmo-style "balance", and taking money out instantly now carries a 1% fee: https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5589-where-is-my-squ...

On the plus side, they give you a virtual card that you can use to spend that money, but it's a far cry from "the money is now available in your bank account"

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#29
post #5
post #3

I guess Stripe is now offering short-term lines of credit and handling intra-bank settlement themselves? That or they're issuing a "refund" to do this instantly?

@devbug I work at Stripe. nope—neither, we’ve worked with Visa and Mastercard to get funds on to debit cards instantly. This isn’t a refund or a loan. Without getting too into the weeds, in the same way you can make a payment at 10PM on a Sunday, you’re able to be paid out instantly through Instant Payouts.

You're using https://developer.visa.com/products/visa_direct & the MC equivalent to accomplish this, right?

Re: Instant Payouts for Marketplaces

#30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't cost 1.5% to execute the refund hack onto a Visa/MC debit card. It really depends where the cost is being eaten. Is Lyft eating this or is the driver? Why would anyone agree to a 1.5% reduction in earnings to get their money now instead of tomorrow/2 days?

I'm not talking about card refunds. I'm talking about all the lags in ACH and all the ways that (under UCC) that consumers can grab their money back even after it already went through... > Why would anyone agree to a 1.5% reduction in earnings to get their money now instead of tomorrow/2 days? I have no idea. I don't live in that world. Sounds like some pawn-shop level need-for-cash to me. But I do know that in busin…

I work for a peer-to-peer factoring marketplace startup (http://marketinvoice.com) so I can shed some more light on it. Typically we charge between 1%-3% for a 30 day advance.

A couple of common scenarios in the tech industry:

1) You're a web/mobile agency who gets paid on 30 day terms but you need to pay your staff (and contractors) on a monthly basis. If the times line up exactly you might get away with it but if your customer pays late you end up not being able to make payroll. Being able to get the money instantly as soon as you've issued the invoice is a huge peace of mind.

2) You're a software company which sells licences/subscriptions on a monthly basis. If you get that money up-front it means you can redeploy that money straight into marketing which when you're on an exponential growth curve makes a huge difference and is a vastly cheaper form of financing than venture capital (in this scenario we can actually advance up-to twelve months of subscription fees upfront).

3) You have to pay tax based on the amount of money you've invoiced for, not the amount you received to date, so you can easily get a tax bill for which you won't have the money for until your customer pays you. But the taxman won't generally be willing to wait so you have to finance it somehow.

To get an idea of how big a market this is, last year in the UK alone (where we're based) invoice finance was a ~100 billion pound market. A meaningful percentage of global GDP is dependant on this kind of advance.

In terms of cost most companies just build it into their pricing, it's often easier for these businesses to charge their customers more money than it is to convince their customers to pay faster (these are typically large corporates who can spend more but can't stop internal bureaucracy).

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