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How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

haseebq.com

21–30 of 132 posts

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he's clearly a pretty skilled self-teacher I think it's pronounced "self-promoter."

Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" -- call it wh…

FYI, he's actually quite technically talented. Let's assume less and RTFA more.

http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii...

Excerpt:

... many people are drawing the conclusion that I primarily got a job at Airbnb by being really good at negotiating, or gaming the system, or something like that.

If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. There is no way to negotiate or charm someone into passing a software engineering interview. Much less 8 of them.

If you don’t know the ins and outs of object-oriented programming, database design, asymptotic analysis, binary search trees, or how to improve the cache efficiency of an algorithm, then you’re not going to pass a computer science-heavy interview at a top company. You don’t even have a shot at it.

The moral of my story is not “get really good at negotiating and you’ll get a great job.” Negotiating is important, and I certainly encourage everyone to negotiate!

But first, get good at the thing you’re doing. Then worry about negotiating.

I moved to San Francisco from Austin, Texas about a year ago because I decided I was going to earn-to-give. Since then I’ve been relentlessly trying to build a new career for myself, so I could earn more and donate more to charity.

Entering into App Academy, barely knowing the basics of Ruby, I came into the office and grinded every day, spending 80+ hour weeks just coding and studying. I’d come in at 9AM in the morning and leave around midnight, 7 days a week, sleeping in a bunk bed in SOMA in a 200 square feet shared room.

It’s certainly true that I probably have a mind that’s well-suited for coding. But it’s also true that I outworked almost everyone who was in my cohort. And when I was hired by App Academy to help teach the course, I continued working as hard as I could to get good at this.

I still stayed late in the evenings, I still came into the office on weekends alongside the students just to continue coding and learning more. I started an algorithms study group in the evenings where I taught students new algorithms that I had read about, and wrote specs and instructions to guide them through the implementation. I took over our entire algorithms curriculum and taught well over 100 students the basics of data structures and algorithms.

And of course, I was scared that none of this would matter. That having been an English major, having a non-traditional background, being 26 and too old to transition into tech, competing against 20 year olds who’d been coding since they were 10, I thought I must have no chance.

Thankfully, I was wrong. And I’m very, very lucky that I was wrong, because I was almost right.

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" -- call it wh…

FYI, he's actually quite technically talented. Let's assume less and RTFA more. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii... Excerpt: ... many people are drawing the conclusion that I primarily got a job at Airbnb by being really good at negotiating, or gaming the system, or something like that. If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. T…

> If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. There is no way to negotiate or charm someone into passing a software engineering interview.

I'm sure the author is sufficiently qualified to pass such an interview (or 8), but I find this statement pretty bizarre. "Charm" might not be the right word, but under-qualified candidates pass software engineering interviews all the time.

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#23
I highly recommend reading Never Split the Difference, by Chris Voss. The book offers a different take to negotiation, written by a former FBI negotiator.

In his words, he could never split the difference in a hostage negotiation. When you enter the process understanding this, you do things differently.

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#24
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he's clearly a pretty skilled self-teacher I think it's pronounced "self-promoter."

Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" -- call it wh…

lol would it make you feel better to learn that 1/3rd of that salary is RSUs?

Or will it make you feel worse to feel that he was denied the position at AirBnB but made some phone calls?

Its cool, learn how to play your cards, and this guy already had a track record of successfully doing that

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#26

I highly recommend reading Never Split the Difference, by Chris Voss. The book offers a different take to negotiation, written by a former FBI negotiator. In his words, he could never split the difference in a hostage negotiation. When you enter the process understanding this, you do things differently.

Can you elaborate a bit please? Does this mean not meeting half way between your offer and theirs? And then what?

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#27
It's this kind of personality that I look for in my organisations, mainly to isolate and slowly get rid of. The focus on "me" is so toxic. No amount of brilliance makes up for circles of damage to other, modest, hard working people.

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#28
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" -- call it wh…

He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a standard vesting schedule. He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to charity. He wasn't just a graduate of a hacker bootcamp, he was hired on by App Academy after he finished and was quickly promoted up to Director of Product. He spent a lot of time teaching people how to pass whiteboard interviews. He was probably better prepared for an…

You made some very valid points, and I'd like to point a few things out:

"He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a standard vesting schedule."

Yes, and he purposefully chose (as he describes) the more "illiquid" of two offers.

"He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to charity."

Admirable and very commendable (I can't stress how much I really respect this about him), but irrelevant.

"If you spend 15 minutes talking to him, he'll leave an impression."

-- the definition of "charisma"

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#29
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, he's actually quite technically talented. Let's assume less and RTFA more. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii... Excerpt: ... many people are drawing the conclusion that I primarily got a job at Airbnb by being really good at negotiating, or gaming the system, or something like that. If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. T…

> If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. There is no way to negotiate or charm someone into passing a software engineering interview. I'm sure the author is sufficiently qualified to pass such an interview (or 8), but I find this statement pretty bizarre. "Charm" might not be the right word, but under-qualified candidates pass software engineering interv…

This is a particularly interesting anecdote about someone faking his way into Google, and then later starting a company almost as famous.

https://www.wired.com/2013/04/fakeit/

Re: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation

#30
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" -- call it wh…

I wouldn't call it sad at all. It's all a game, and these are the people that are playing to win (by their definition of "winning", which is a lot of people's: maximizing monetary gains) I agree with a lot of what you say (and in fact, I work at a company that doesn't allow negotiations at all and has an open salary calculator: http://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator ) but I wouldn't call it sad at all, I…

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