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How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

nytimes.com

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#21
post #7

Even after reading the piece, I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics of it all. Under normal conditions, when people walking in front of you stop, you stop also so you don't bump into them. Makes sense, right? So you would think that as long as everybody obeys that simple rule of movement, this should never happen. But having been caught in a much less serious "crush" once, I know it's not that simple. In m…

> as long as everybody obeys that simple rule of movement, this should never happen.

That's true, but beyond a certain density this is no longer possible because there is no space between you and the next person.

Here's a video that shows this phenomenon in rather graphic detail (warning: disturbing imagery):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu4DlwE0Bu8

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#22
post #2

> caused by two large groups of pilgrims converging onto Street 204 Sounds like a traffic management problem. Article doesn't mention any steps the organizers are making to fix it. Perhaps controls at intersections?

Some types of controls can make it worse. A physical barrier, for instance, could result in (and has at other crushes) people being crushed against the barricade itself. You need to control the inflow to the traffic channels, because the people at the back don't know they're killing people. They'll press not realizing the impact of their decision. The people in the middle and, possibly, the front have nowhere to go.

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#23
post #14
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Article doesn't mention any steps the organizers are making to fix it That's because they are making none. The "steps" (rituals) of Hajj have been the same for over 1400 years, there's no reason for such accidents to happen when you: Know where people are headed. When people are headed there. The number of those people. And most importantly UNLIMITED fucking ressources! Knowing that many people lost their lives beca…

This comment contains both informative content and uncivil insults that the guidelines ask us not to make. Please give us the former without the latter. It's even more important around controversial topics that we comment civilly and reflectively. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

>Be civil.

Defending civility against savagery doesn't count as being civil?

>Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation.

On penalty of beheading?

>Avoid gratuitous negativity.

I think a bit of negativity is perfectly warranted given the subject matter.

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#25
post #7

Even after reading the piece, I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics of it all. Under normal conditions, when people walking in front of you stop, you stop also so you don't bump into them. Makes sense, right? So you would think that as long as everybody obeys that simple rule of movement, this should never happen. But having been caught in a much less serious "crush" once, I know it's not that simple. In m…

At a certain density a crowd of people starts behaving more like a fluid than a group of individuals.

And the GP has rediscovered that viscosity is much higher for a fluid made up of long-chained molecules (think motor oil) than a fluid made up of short-chained ones (think gasoline).

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#26
Woody Guthrie wrote a song about a true story - 1913 Massacre - a devasting and haunting song.

The song is based around the Italian Hall Disaster - a tragedy that occurred on December 24, 1913, in Calumet, Michigan. 73 men, women, and children, mostly striking mine workers and their families, were crushed to death in a stampede when someone falsely shouted "fire" at a crowded Christmas party.

I suggest reading the entire lyrics... http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Nineteen_Thirteen_Massacr...

...or listening to the song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7oguguIZE

...but here's the second half which describes the scenario:

The copper boss' thugs stuck their heads in the door, One of them yelled and he screamed, "there's a fire," A lady she hollered, "there's no such a thing. Keep on with your party, there's no such thing."

A few people rushed and it was only a few, "It's just the thugs and the scabs fooling you," A man grabbed his daughter and carried her down, But the thugs held the door and he could not get out.

And then others followed, a hundred or more, But most everybody remained on the floor, The gun thugs they laughed at their murderous joke, While the children were smothered on the stairs by the door.

Such a terrible sight I never did see, We carried our children back up to their tree, The scabs outside still laughed at their spree, And the children that died there were seventy-three.

The piano played a slow funeral tune, And the town was lit up by a cold Christmas moon, The parents they cried and the miners they moaned, "See what your greed for money has done."

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#27
post #19
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Article doesn't mention any steps the organizers are making to fix it That's because they are making none. The "steps" (rituals) of Hajj have been the same for over 1400 years, there's no reason for such accidents to happen when you: Know where people are headed. When people are headed there. The number of those people. And most importantly UNLIMITED fucking ressources! Knowing that many people lost their lives beca…

The Saudis have tried to fix the problem, but not very effectively. They've built lots of tunnels and ramps. But they tend to build hard-sided walkways without escape routes. They also have too many long pathways where people can't see what's happening ahead. So anything that causes a stoppage can cause a crush. The Mina crush may have been started by a VIP visit by the Saudi minister of defense, with a big entourage…

Sounds like a blood clot.

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#28
post #7

Even after reading the piece, I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics of it all. Under normal conditions, when people walking in front of you stop, you stop also so you don't bump into them. Makes sense, right? So you would think that as long as everybody obeys that simple rule of movement, this should never happen. But having been caught in a much less serious "crush" once, I know it's not that simple. In m…

>Under normal conditions, when people walking in front of you stop, you stop also so you don't bump into them. Makes sense, right?

By that logic, there should be no car crashes.

Re: How One of the Deadliest Hajj Accidents Unfolded

#30
post #29

On a side note, why are areas separated based on countries of origin? If I were a muslim on the Hajj I'd be enthralled to be around people of all cultures and countries around me.

Communication? It's easier to communicate to a crowd of people who speak the same language, if the need arises.
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