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You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

nytimes.com

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Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#21

Post by sotojuan »

rawnlq wrote: post #16
dijit wrote: post #2

I don't see many old sysadmins in companies I've worked in. Even fewer older developers, I have a slight worry that this career path has an affinity for youth- which I won't have for much longer. So this is disheartening to read.

People working in tech also tend to retire early or start doing their own thing due to their salary.

Do they really retire early though? I always hear people in forums saying how they'll save up and not have kids to retire by 40 but never meet anyone that has done that. I really doubt most programmers that don't go into management and didn't win the startup lottery retire much earlier than other careers.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#22

Post by Bahamut »

ardit33 wrote: post #14
cpprototypes wrote: post #9

Recently I got an email about a job that seemed interesting. It's a well known company that used to be a startup but is now a mature company. I went to the job description page: 8+ years experience, tech stack I'm familiar with, mostly backend work, seems ok so far. Then I get to the last line. Open office, has video games, happy hours, other typical things designed to attract those in their 20s. It's all a hidden me…

I am sorry, but what is wrong with having video games in the office? At both my previous companies I played games time to time, with co-workers. 15 mins of playing Fifa with a co-worker end s up both relaxing, and productive as you both bond and hash out things, and often much better than boring meeting. I am 35 btw. Also, our CEO regularly played as well. I have been at an office/environment (Amazon), with cubicles,…

I usually find there being too much to do to spend time playing video games or whatever at the job, unless there is a company after-hours event.

I'm not exactly on the younger side either, being 32 and having only been working professionally for almost 4 years. It's not that I don't love games either - if the game industry paid comparatively, I would certainly consider going into that industry, and have plenty of very successful friends in it.

That said, I don't view the presence of these things as discrimination - if you don't want to participate, don't. Nobody is forcing you, and if they want to falsify performance reviews/withhold promotions when you're clearly outperforming your peers/etc., then I'd get down and dirty letting them know that their behavior is crap, and then job search because I don't want to work for a company like that.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#23

Post by ben_jones »

Disclaimer: The following are existential questions that do not reflect my own beliefs in any way, shape, or form.

Why do older people deserve jobs? Why does anyone deserve a job? Are there instances where we as a society accept people NOT deserving a job? How different is age as an attribute compared to: Felons, the mentally impaired, the under-qualified, those lacking physical attributes?

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#24

Post by ryanSrich »

ardit33 wrote: post #14
cpprototypes wrote: post #9

Recently I got an email about a job that seemed interesting. It's a well known company that used to be a startup but is now a mature company. I went to the job description page: 8+ years experience, tech stack I'm familiar with, mostly backend work, seems ok so far. Then I get to the last line. Open office, has video games, happy hours, other typical things designed to attract those in their 20s. It's all a hidden me…

I am sorry, but what is wrong with having video games in the office? At both my previous companies I played games time to time, with co-workers. 15 mins of playing Fifa with a co-worker end s up both relaxing, and productive as you both bond and hash out things, and often much better than boring meeting. I am 35 btw. Also, our CEO regularly played as well. I have been at an office/environment (Amazon), with cubicles,…

It's not the video games themselves. It's the culture. It's a way to keep young employees in the office longer. It's not uncommon for these places to have people roll in around 10am and stay until 10pm. That's not a place I want to work at, and I'm not even 30 yet. But you can bet your life savings on a company firing anyone for not playing this game. That's why I won't work for a place with videogames.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#25

Post by cpprototypes »

aswanson wrote: post #3
dijit wrote: post #2

I don't see many old sysadmins in companies I've worked in. Even fewer older developers, I have a slight worry that this career path has an affinity for youth- which I won't have for much longer. So this is disheartening to read.

Tech fields have an inherent disuse for seniority. Beyond five years, no one gives an f how long you have worked with a given toolchain/language. It's the hunger games. Medicine, finance, law, accounting...rightly or wrongly respect decades of experience. Tech is Logan's Run. Plan accordingly.

And this is why software today is in such a sad state. Managers think it would be great to have an army of young engineers who don't question and just do what they're told. But any leader surrounded by sycophants will eventually fail. Management often doesn't realize that they really need the senior engineer who has the experience and confidence to say "NO". Because that engineer is the one who will prevent the project from collapsing under the weight of scope creep and tech debt.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#26

Post by Swizec »

sp332 wrote: post #17
Swizec wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

o/ 29 year old here, 20 years coding, 13 years of people paying me to code. We exist. I sure hope companies don't have that as a base expectation, though.

That you exist isn't the problem. The problem is discrimination based on age.

Naturally. All I'm saying that it IS possible to find someone in their 20's with 8+ years of experience.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#27

Post by GauntletWizard »

cpprototypes wrote: post #9

Recently I got an email about a job that seemed interesting. It's a well known company that used to be a startup but is now a mature company. I went to the job description page: 8+ years experience, tech stack I'm familiar with, mostly backend work, seems ok so far. Then I get to the last line. Open office, has video games, happy hours, other typical things designed to attract those in their 20s. It's all a hidden me…

You know who made the most use of the kegerator and the board game night at my last business? The sixty-year-old dude with a wife and two kids. He spent one-and-a-half nights a week at the office drinking, playing games, and socializing and was otherwise headed home by five. He made good use of that networking time, though, and partially because the tooling was there; he'd not have had a chance to interact with the office full of twentysomethings if he'd not had work provided socialization tools and had to go out out to interact.

It didn't exactly work - he eventually was fired in a really bad bit of house-training for cronies... But he was very popular. The tooling you're reading as a young people's perk is actually a pretty good neutral ground: if work didn't have a kegerator, I'd probably not go out, I'd be at home, not working and not thinking about work.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#28

Post by epalmer »

rawnlq wrote: post #16
dijit wrote: post #2

I don't see many old sysadmins in companies I've worked in. Even fewer older developers, I have a slight worry that this career path has an affinity for youth- which I won't have for much longer. So this is disheartening to read.

People working in tech also tend to retire early or start doing their own thing due to their salary.

Outside of the startups and fast growth companies there are a lot of "tech" jobs where people makes careers out of it. The jobs might not be sexy and might not pay top dollar but also don't churn employees nor require long work weeks.

My opinion is HN readers are skewed towards the former, not the latter.

I am getting ready to start year 11 at a University. I am 62 years old, make a good wages, but not too dollar. I manage a small web team and I get to write Java, Python, and bash. I also get to do log file analysis with splunk which I love.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#29

Post by sillysaurus3 »

ben_jones wrote: post #23

Disclaimer: The following are existential questions that do not reflect my own beliefs in any way, shape, or form. Why do older people deserve jobs? Why does anyone deserve a job? Are there instances where we as a society accept people NOT deserving a job? How different is age as an attribute compared to: Felons, the mentally impaired, the under-qualified, those lacking physical attributes?

There's a moral argument to be made that people deserve jobs because society forces you to work. If you don't work, and you're not independently wealthy, you can't support yourself. Therefore to say people don't deserve jobs is to say they deserve to be out on the street.

Re: You’re How Old? We’ll Be in Touch

#30

Post by aristus »

ben_jones wrote: post #23

Disclaimer: The following are existential questions that do not reflect my own beliefs in any way, shape, or form. Why do older people deserve jobs? Why does anyone deserve a job? Are there instances where we as a society accept people NOT deserving a job? How different is age as an attribute compared to: Felons, the mentally impaired, the under-qualified, those lacking physical attributes?

Fair question: It's less about why someone "deserves a job" and more about human rights. We are all human beings who deserve equal treatment under the law, including consideration for employment. Older people breathe air and eat food just like everyone else. If it were legal to exclude +65 (or +40) from employment, what exactly are they supposed to do?

This fairness argument is complicated by what happens in down economies. Experienced (read: older) people tend to crowd out the younger folks for jobs. I don't know an equitable fix for this, but throwing people out of the workforce for something they can't change doesn't seem right.

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