Yeah, I don't get it either. FWIW, and why I'm commenting, "promiscuity" with regards to computer communications isn't even new with Crockford. It's the exact correct term used in the industry to refer to a mode you can put network cards into if you want to inspect all traffic that reaches it, rather than just traffic indented for your workstation [0]. It goes back at least to the early 1990s when I first encountered it, probably earlier.
Crockford
21–30 of 117 posts
Re: Crockford
#22Mr. Straw is part of the problem, imo. There's a lawful vs chaotic dichotomy going on - Mr. Straw started out lawful conservative, but then found out about a different set of laws he could leverage into a position of power. It's a similar but different power leverage being exercised elsewhere by a new generation. Feeling excluded by more usual measures like achievement or talent, they've taken to using social taboos…
Or it could be that he changed his opinions based on new perspectives like any intellectually honest person does.
People who self identify as busybodies creating rules of conduct etc. seem to me to be more interested in rules than opinions. Setting the rules, especially when it's around social norms - rules almost for the sake of rules - is a cheap power tactic pursued in organisations all over the world for decades. Thought police / religious fundamentalists exist in every political shade. It's the zealousness of the policing that I have a problem with, not the particular shade.
Just my opinion. I don't care much about the politics. I don't think either side of US politics is wrong or right per se, for example. I'm just very wary of people who have strong opinions that they want to turn into rules.
Re: Crockford
#23He said a few things that feel like promoting a non inclusive environment. Which is bad, especially from someone like him, because many people look up to him and probably think it is okay to say such things. Edit: Also interesting that the HN crowd always confirms the accusations they receive.
Do you have examples of those things? It would go a long way to moving the conversation forwards.
This seems to be the crux of the problem: accusations without anything at all backing it up. Not even specific pointers to talks given.
Re: Crockford
#24Sometimes people encourage me to get into speaking at conferences. There are a number of reasons I don't want to, and shit like this isn't the main one, but it certainly doesn't help.
Everything just feels very tense (to be clear, I think the reasons for this are understandable) but it also just seems kind of thankless.
Re: Crockford
#25As for Mr Straw, glad to hear he made the decision to think for himself, rather than buying into all the BS that the conservatives or liberals / Republicans or Democrats are selling.
All things in moderation, I suppose, and don't be afraid to look at the historical facts and likely consequences of decisions.
Not that facts help you make a values decision about what to do when there is a "zero sum", conflict of interest type situation...
Re: Crockford
#26I'm trying to imagine an alternative timeline in which Nodevember, after having announced Crockford as a speaker and then receiving pushback on Twitter, privately discusses things with Crockford and mutually agree that they should part ways, but come up with a plausible explanation that would minimize the loss of face for both parties. (for the sake of argument, let's say we agree that conferences have the unilateral…
"it seriously fucked up for not vetting Mr. Crockford before inviting him" What exactly does Mr. Crockford need to be "vetted" for, with whom, and how exactly did those people gain the authority to decide who gets to speak and who doesn't?
Whose authority? The same authority that allows them to create Nodevember: their own. I've never run a conference so I'm only speculating here: when people decide to organize a conference, they have an idea of what ideas and environment and discussion they want to promote, whether it's Nodevember or the American Neo-Nazi Party. I don't know what Nodevember's standards are but they clearly don't allow for Crockford, and as long as it's not for reasons that might violate civil rights, e.g. if Crockford were to rely on a wheelchair and Nodevember wanted to convene at a place without elevators or ramps, they can have whatever standards they want, just like they're free to write and uphold a code of conduct they believe in.
But generally, and again I've never run a conference, if you have standards, you should have them at the time of planning the conference, including when inviting keynote speakers.
Re: Crockford
#27I think the only way to oppose this tidal wave of bullying and shaming and witch hunting is to employ all of the same tactics the cry-bullies employ. People and organizations cave to these bullies because, in their cost-benefit calculations, they see little or no downside to caving, and possible upside. In order to stop this, it has to made costly to cave to them. If everyone who thinks it was ridiculous and cowardly for Nodevember to uninvite Crockford were to make it known that they would boycott Nodevember and their corporate sponsors in the future, they might see things differently.
Also, people who routinely seek to destroy the reputations and careers of people who don't speak and behave according to their strict standard should run the risk of having their own careers and reputations destroyed in response. This form of sweet justice happens once in a while, but not nearly enough.
Re: Crockford
#28This is a perfect synopsis. Trump is a complete spazz but a symptom of the backlash. I agree.
> a complete retard
Knock it off.
Re: Crockford
#29It disappoints me to see how many folks on Hacker News have responded to this incident by condemning the entire concept of standards of conduct and the idea that the developer community should take the goal of inclusivity and sensitivity seriously. There is no question that our community too often can feel hostile to those who aren't white hetero men, and that is a real problem.
On the other hand, there is no question that advocates for inclusivity are sometimes overzealous and careless, and no doubt, some people have even exploited the issue in bad faith for their own aims. These mistakes confuse and alienate would-be allies in the community. While no doubt well-intentioned, Nodevember has hurt the cause.
My plea to those who are tempted to dismiss the whole project of inclusivity in response to this incident is this:
The program needs debugging, but that doesn't mean the program is unworkable or the goals are undesirable. Perhaps we forgot a semicolon somewhere, or maybe we need to do a complete rewrite. But creating a community that is comfortable for everyone is an inherently valuable goal. And it doesn't need to be uncomfortable for cisgendered hetero white men, either. Please don't abandon this goal. Instead, let's engage in a constructive dialogue to figure out how to do better.
Re: Crockford
#30Mr. Straw is part of the problem, imo. There's a lawful vs chaotic dichotomy going on - Mr. Straw started out lawful conservative, but then found out about a different set of laws he could leverage into a position of power. It's a similar but different power leverage being exercised elsewhere by a new generation. Feeling excluded by more usual measures like achievement or talent, they've taken to using social taboos…
I don't understand your comment. Do I need to know something about Paul Straw that isn't included in the article, or have I just missed the point?