Live data from Hacker News

The Math Myth

econlog.econlib.org

21–30 of 328 posts

Re: The Math Myth

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you're not aware of your math literacy? You knew, remembered, and understood what an arctangent is. That makes you tremendously more math literate than the typical non-STEM educated Joe or Jane.

And, according to the article, more math literate than most STEM-educated people, too.

Suggests the article, yeah. I honestly don't buy that - citation needed. After some time STEM-educated people might not always remember exactly how what they learned works, sure. I certainly don't, for one. But I'd be hard pressed to believe they don't remember it exists - i.e. or at least remember enough to google their way into rediscovering it and finding a shortcut to solve their problem.

Re: The Math Myth

#22
I think the author is both right and wrong. Maths skills is a litmus test that reflects the scientific education in general among the population.

Given the anti-intellectual and antiscience trends in US and Europe - where US seems to lead the way, it's at least one way of monitoring the situation.

As a practical skill, anything beyond 5th grade is rarely used, except if in rather specialized professions, but learning math most probably gives you tools for abstract reasoning, and probably changes how you look at the world.

Re: The Math Myth

#23
post #18

I think society would be a lot better if BASIC math and statistics would be better understood. How many times do you see a study posted here with N=23 and people say "the sample size is too small" when it's clearly not? How many people ask for a card deck change to change their luck? How many times do people read a poll like 49% +/- 3% vs. 43% +/- 3% and conclude the two candidates are statistically tied? I could pro…

What is the generalised rule/case where small sample sizes are sufficient?

Re: The Math Myth

#24
How would this same conjecture apply to History, Literature, Biology, Physics, etc etc?

How much of any advanced learning do most people use in their day to day lives? All of it in the periphery would be my counter-conjecture.

I was always taught trade schools were for learning a particular skill. College was to equip you with the knowledge and ability to think logically required to have a better life.

Re: The Math Myth

#25
At my workplace, we have about 60 scientists and engineers. The author's observation is accurate, that most people never use math beyond Excel and 8th grade math. They also never use most of the theory that they learned in their science (including CS) and engineering educations.

The typical career arc is to get through college, then sit down at a CAD workstation, or programming terminal, and forget all of your math and theory within a few years or even months. Time that isn't spent doing CAD, is spent on testing, troubleshooting, dealing with vendors, and so forth. A few of them start prepping for management. It's becoming increasingly common for engineers to start their MBA training as soon as the company agrees to pay for it.

Truth be told, outside of a few life-support-critical applications, most design is done by trial and error. Very little real engineering gets done.

And the products we make, are designed to provide similar benefits in another profession. We are told by management: "Our customers don't want products that require them to think. They want something where a person with an 8th grade education can push a button and get an answer."

When a math or theory problem arises, they take it to the resident "math person." That's me. I'm glad that I spent the better part of my youth learning math and theory, because I'd be as suited to the CAD workstation as I'd have been to working at a loom, or a lathe, 100 years ago. For the most part, the people who emerge as "math people" are the ones who were interested in it as an end unto itself, in the first place. I didn't study math because I expected it to be necessary for a job. I studied math (and physics, programming, electronics, etc.) because I was interested in those things. They were for me an escape from preparing for my career.

Re: The Math Myth

#26
post #16

I think this gets it all wrong by considering mathematics to be a set of discrete tricks, like 8th grade arithmetic, algebra and statistics. Mathematical thinking and problem solving are skills that need to be honed and kept up to date. You do that by learning new methods and tricks constantly. There are disciplines that require similar skills and have a positive cross-over to other skills. Computer science theory is…

Even if math education is learning new methods and tricks, they are not the skill that should be learned. It's the methodology of what it takes to master a new method - learning how to learn.

Learning to learn what? Nobody taught me how to learn how to learn.

I taught myself how to program. I read books, watch tutorials, and so on.

There's no systematic methodology to the whole thing.

Maybe until recently I found a guy who have a 'systematic methodology' for learning. I have yet to use it myself.

Re: The Math Myth

#27
post #20
post #18

I think society would be a lot better if BASIC math and statistics would be better understood. How many times do you see a study posted here with N=23 and people say "the sample size is too small" when it's clearly not? How many people ask for a card deck change to change their luck? How many times do people read a poll like 49% +/- 3% vs. 43% +/- 3% and conclude the two candidates are statistically tied? I could pro…

To be fair, 0.9999... = 1 is not quite basic. You need to know things like infinitesimals, the distinction between value and representation of numbers etc.

It's also not strictly, theoretically true. More an 'for all intents and purposes' kind of thing.

Re: The Math Myth

#28
post #20
post #18

I think society would be a lot better if BASIC math and statistics would be better understood. How many times do you see a study posted here with N=23 and people say "the sample size is too small" when it's clearly not? How many people ask for a card deck change to change their luck? How many times do people read a poll like 49% +/- 3% vs. 43% +/- 3% and conclude the two candidates are statistically tied? I could pro…

To be fair, 0.9999... = 1 is not quite basic. You need to know things like infinitesimals, the distinction between value and representation of numbers etc.

Most people are happy to accept 0.33333... is the same as one third and from there it's a quick hop to 3*0.3333...

Re: The Math Myth

#29
At the level of individuals, this article is complete bullshit. There is a WORLD of difference between an average mathematician/physicist/engineer and an average English literature graduate solving the same problem with the same tools. Those disciplines teach and/or reinforce A) critical thinking (question assumptions, look for counter-examples), B) decomposing problems to smaller problems, C) pattern recognition. The average software engineer would be somewhere in the middle, he's probably as good as a mathematician at A) and B), but probably not C). Even amongst reasonably mathematically educated people (say physicists), you see a difference in C) depending on the depth of their math education. There is a difference between people who know eg fractions, and people who know eg fractions AND integrals, and people who know eg fractions AND integrals AND group theory, in how often these individuals look at a situation and go "I've seen something like this before". Acquiring some areas of more advanced maths isn't a quantitative increase like doing bigger sums. In terms of the patterns that you see around you, it's a qualitative jump. It's like being able to use your eyes AND having IR goggles: you will see some aspects of the world very differently.

At the level of societies, maybe. Can a poor society with lots of mathematicians "beat" a society with lots of wealth and infrastructure and comfortable niceties but whose individuals can only use Excel? Probably not, certainly not in < 1 generation. It certainly didn't turn out great for the soviets.

Re: The Math Myth

#30
post #27
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, 0.9999... = 1 is not quite basic. You need to know things like infinitesimals, the distinction between value and representation of numbers etc.

It's also not strictly, theoretically true. More an 'for all intents and purposes' kind of thing.

No, it is true in the strictest sense of the word.
Post reply on HN